Angry in the Great White North

a heat-seeking missile in the Conservative arsenal

Check out Alberta Aadvark. He's caught this brilliant interview with Hedy Fry, as she tries mightily to explain Liberal Party leader Stephane Dion's carbon tax to radio host Dave Rutherford.  The interview took place on August 5, and can be retrieved from the QR77 audio vault (the interview starts at about the 9:30am mark).  The archive will be available from the QR77 vault for 30 days.

It is hard to imagine a more incoherent mess of contradictory and shifting positions. Listen to whole interview, or read the complete transcription, and watch as Hedy Fry's understanding of the carbon tax evolves in real time.

Here are some of Hedy Fry's key points:

• Yes, gasoline will be taxed.
• Your refund will be in the form of a cheque mailed to those who qualify.
• The carbon tax will be applied at the wholesale level, not the retail level, which means Canadians can't say they're being taxed.
• The previous point notwithstanding, as a result of the carbon tax, families will struggle with the high cost of food, fuel, and everything, attributed in large part to the increase in the cost of shipping thanks to an increase in the price of diesel fuel.
• There will be no shift of wealth from one set of provinces to another set.
• This previous point notwithstanding, Alberta and Saskatchewan are going to benefit hugely from the carbon tax.
• The carbon tax will probably be important in helping the environment.  We need to move to cleaner forms of oil.
• Despite what the plan states (that Northern Residents Deduction will increase from $6000 to $7000, translating into a saving of about $150 a year), people in the North are going to get cheques for $2000 each.
• Ignore everything said by Ken Boshcoff, Martha Hall Findlay, and Ralph Goodale, at least until Hedy Fry explains what they were trying to say.
• Oil prices are going up to $200 a barrel.  A carbon tax will help Canadians make ends meet.
• Every Canadian ends up with more money.  Everyone.  Individual Canadians aren't paying the tax.  The wholesalers are paying the tax.  The money is collected by the government and then given to individual Canadians.  No money is being taken out of Canadians' pockets. 

Am I quoting out of context?  Cherry picking quotes to make Hedy Fry and the Liberal look bad?  You decide.  Not only can you listen to the recording, I've transcribed the entire interview below so that anyone can review the interview with or without audio equipment.

[Rutherford Intro]

Dave Rutherford: Well now you know, obviously, that Stephane Dion is putting his political and that of the Liberal Party of Canada on the Green Shift.

Oh, and by the way, Jennifer Wright...you remember Jennifer Wright?  She was on the program a while back when she was first expressing some anger at the Liberal Party because her company is called Green Shift.  Remember her?  Jennifer Wright is still going after the Libs, wanting them to immediately stop using her good name for their proposed environmental tax program -- I'm reading from an op-ed piece in the Post today -- she says return "Green Shift" to their rightful owners.  She says they must destroy all Liberal materials that use our name, and must do so in an environmentally sensitive manner, of course.  Additionally they must fairly compensate the real Green Shift for the damage and trouble they have caused, damage which grows worst with each and every day.

Jennifer Wright is not quitting.  She's mad at the Libs for stealing her company name.

Well, Green Shift is still out there and it is difficult..quite...to grasp because it seems, based on some reporting over this summer, it seems that the Liberal themselves don't quite got it.  They don't have a handle on what they're selling.

And if you're selling something you should really know what it is.

But they don't seem to.  They just don't...because there's all these disagreements about the money and what this program really is.

And nobody can really put a quantity on the amount of CO2 that will be reduced from the atmosphere.

Isn't that what this is?

Well, not so fast.

When this thing was first announced, the very first Liberal who was the point person to sell the program as soon as the Liberal leader had announced it was Garth Turner.  Garth Turner was the guy.  He was the point man.  He said, "I'm it.  Talk to me."

We had him on the air.

He couldn't explain it.

Garth Turner, I suggest, was the Liberal of convenience, you know.  He comes and goes, whatever time it is now, what party does he belong to...well, we'll see.

But anyway, he was the Liberal that day, and he was trying to sell the Green Shift, and didn't quite get it either.

Now, there's another point person with us today who's in Alberta.

This name you'll recognize from the Liberal wars of the past, as well as today.

Hedy Fry, Liberal MP for Vancouver Centre, is with us.

Hello, Hedy.

Hedy Fry: Hello, Dave, how are you today?

DR: Very well.  How are you?

HF: I'm good.

DR: And you're in Alberta to do several things, but part of it is to sell the Green Shift.  Is that right?

HF: Well, part of it is to talk about the Green Shift, but part of it is also to talk about the copyright bill with many of the stakeholders in copyright.

DR: Copyright is a very important issue.  Clearly you're right, and we've done several shows on that, and you're right.  But maybe can you help us with the Green Shift?  Because I've got Thunder Bay Rainy River MP Ken Boshcoff...

HF: Yes.

DR: ...now he says...um...now this is what he announced on his website: "This is the most aggressive anti-poverty program in forty years....The Shift will transfer wealth from rich to poor, from the oil patch to the rest of the country, and from the coffers of big business to the pockets of low income Canadians."

Is that what the Green Shift does?

HF: No.  The Green Shift is trying to be equitable across the country.  It doesn't shift anything from one province to another.  That's the first misinformation that I think people are giving out.

DR: OK, so this is a Liberal MP who doesn't get it then, right?  He doesn't quite get it.

HF: Well, you know, sometimes people go over the top when they write things.

DR: [laughter] An understatement if ever I heard one, Madame Fry, who, as you know, has had the odd occasion of going over the top in some of the verbiage, correct?

HF: Um, I don't know, if you say so.

DR: [laughter] No...[laughter]...I'm not the only one.  But let's go on.  Martha Hall Findlay, who was a leadership candidate...and you were in the leadership lineup at one time, weren't you?

HF: Yes I was.

DR: So she says...Martha Hall Findlay says, "The new taxes will generate 15 billion dollars"....Findlay says, "It is impossible to calculate the emission reduction numbers at this point."

OK, is that correct?  We don't know what emissions are going to be reduced?  Really?

HF: Well we can't give you an exact amount, but it is going to be, probably, the single most important emission reducing measure.  That has been actually accepted by major economists, including Nobel Prize winning economists, by major environmentalists, people who have done the science. 

Now the point is...what we're doing...what we're not taxing gas or diesel at the pump, and we're not taxing gas or diesel at the wellhead level in producer provinces.  So this is where the concept that we're taking from the western and moving it to other parts isn't true.

We're not.

What we're doing is taxing wholesale.

DR: Wholesale.  What is that?  Where is that?  Wholesale?  What?  Wholesale gasoline?

HF: Wholesale.  Yes.  Wholesale gasoline, diesel, coal...not simply natural gas but gas, diesel, coal, propane.  All of those things would be at the wholesale level.

DR: Wholesale.  I don't know where that is.  Where is that?  It comes out of the ground...oil...it comes out of the ground...

HF: People buy it, and they sell it, they distribute it, etc, etc.  But it's not taxing you when you go fill up your tank.  It's not taxing the farmer when goes to get diesel for his tractor.  It's not doing that.

There are already taxes there.  It's going to be equivalent to the amount of taxes we're putting on wholesale.  And already people are paying that amount of that tax at the pump.

So what we're doing is we're going to say is tax at about ten dollars per tonne of CO2 emission for Year 1, and then another ten at Year 2, and then another at Year 3 and Year 4.  By the fourth year it will be $40 a tonne for CO2 emission.

DR: At the wholesale...that the refiner then, at the wholesale level?  That's the refinery?

HF: That's the guy who is..yeah...yeah...

DR: Yeah.

HF: Yeah.

DR: But Ralph Goodale, who is of course a big time Liberal, a former minister of finance, Saskatchewan Liberal...said in Discover Moosejaw magazine, in the news, he's talking to Saskatchewanians, a significant portion of our oil and gas production in our province will end up being exempt from a carbon tax because it's largely put into a pipeline and exported right out of the country without ever being burned on the Canadian side.  So he says there are no emissions on the Canadian side and therefore about two-thirds of our oil and gas industry would be exempt from a carbon tax proposal.  Two-thirds!

HF: Well, the point is that we, in fact, we do not use much of the oil, of our own gas, that we make.  We do export it.  The point is that it is still producing emissions while it is being produced here, so it's not going to be...um.  What he's trying to say is that it's not going to be passed on to the person whose buying gas at the retail level, but we do know that it will in fact increase costs.

You know, look, without a tax, costs are increasing at retail level. At the pump, heating gas, heating oil, people who drive trucks to get food to various places, all of those are going to be increased.  So what we're doing is with the money that we're taxing, we will take every cent of that, every dollar, every penny of that, and we're going to be transferring it directly into the pockets of all Canadians in every part.

DR: I want to hear more about that.   Hedy Fry is my guest.  Liberal MP Vancouver Centre.  You've heard some of the confusion here by some of these other MPs, and Hedy says they don't get it.  We're trying to get clarity here.

[commercial break]

DR: You've heard some of the comments from many of these Liberals that in fact it is the largest transfer of wealth in forty years, anti-poverty program, the money is going to be used for these social programs.  Hedy Fry is with us, Liberal MP, Vancouver Centre.  Hedy, just before the break, you were going to tell us where the fifteen billion is going to go.  Is it going to go into social programs?

HF: First and foremost, the fifteen billion will actually benefit provinces like Alberta and Saskatchewan more than anyone else because a part of that is going to go into what is known as an Accelerated Capital Cost Allowance, which is tax break of about 25% for all companies, such as the ones here, that have already begun to use green technologies in oil producing provinces...

DR: Hold on...

HF: ...carbon sequestration, and any of the stuff that's going on.  They're going to get a big chunk of 25% tax break on those technologies that they're using.  And because they're already started to do that in both of those provinces, so they're going to get that money back to help them with continuing with that kind of innovation, the green technology.

Look, let me tell you, $200 a barrel for oil.  Everywhere around the world people are beginning shifting from the use of fossil fuels to other uses.  We in Canada can either sit here and wait for that to happen or we can take a leadership role and move forward.

And we're already doing it in Alberta and Saskatchewan, where many of the oil producing business are in fact looking at things like carbon sequestration.

DR: Of course they are.  Alberta is number one...

HF: Sure...

DR: But Hedy, you're just saying that we're already doing it, so why do we need to be taxed, and hit over the head with a tax?

HF: But you know what, you're doing it and getting nothing for it. 

DR: What do you mean nothing for it?

HF: You're going to be giving those companies a 25% tax allowance for doing that.  They're going to be getting a 25% capital cost allowance for that work that they're currently doing.

That's where some of that money is going to go.

And it's going to go, for instance, to rural Canadians, who are going to get an extra $150 to pay the cost of increased heating.  The Northern allowance for very cold regions of Canada are going to get an increased Northern allowance of about $2000 to help them with heating.

DR: Hold it!  Hold it!  Hold it!  These numbers are....

HF: ...back into Canadian's pockets...

DR: ...these numbers are new!  Wait a second.  You're going to give Canadians cheques?

HF: Yes.

DR: You...uh...oh...ok.

HF: So every penny that is made from that money is going to go back to Canadians and...

DR: It's not going to go into social programs.  No anti-poverty programs.

HF: Hold on.  Hold on.  It's going to go back to Canadians.  Canadians are not one amorphous mass.  Canadians are people who live in rural areas, they live in northern areas, they are doing work in the businesses with green technology.  There are are people who have low income are going to have to pay for the higher cost of heating and transit.  Money is going to go into everybody's pockets. 

DR: But you're taking it out of our pockets first and giving it back to us!  Why would you do that?

HF: It's not coming out of your pockets.  It's coming out of the wholesale level pocket.  It's going to help you with the cost you're already paying.

DR: Where do you think...

HF: It's going to help you with the cost you're already paying.  You know, if you're a senior in this country, and you're a low income person, already having to pay increased heating costs of about of $80 a year or $100 during the winter...

DR: Whatever...

HF: Well, you're going to get some money to help you with that as we continue to shift our dependence on those things as we at the same time...

DR: How are these seniors going to shift their dependence?  What are they going to shift to?

HF: Well, as we in Alberta and Saskatchewan start using green technology, as we start developing other technologies in other parts of Canada, we will be shifting what kind of heating fuel we will be using.  That will help people in the interim while the shifts are going on as I said before. Everybody is moving from $200 barrel oil to try to find another cost of heating.

DR: Or they're buying smaller cars.  People are moving on their own already with lifestyle changes.

HF: But some people can't afford to move on their own.  You know, you can afford to go off there and buy a little Prius or whatever...

DR: [chuckling]

HF: ...but some people who are of low income can't afford to do any of that.

DR: You're not buying cars for people?  You're not doing that?

HF: No, but we're...

DR: But this is new...Hedy...you're going to give cheques to people.  I did not know this.

HF: Yes.

DR: Cheques are going to be written. 

HF: Families. All families...

DR: Who qualifies? All families?

HF: All families..."all families" meaning with children...it doesn't matter what your tax rate is, will get a boost of about $250 a year on top of the child benefits that are already there for them.  So that's going to help them because again the cost of food is going up, because of fuel costs...

DR:  Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  That's a different program then.  You're going to subsidize people for the high cost of living. 

HF: The high cost of food.  When you've trucked your stuff from A to B, people pay for it at the supermarket level.  So people with children and families who are buying more, of a lot of things that are coming from across the country, will increase the cost in their pocketbook, so we're taking it and giving it back to them to help them pay for those things.  It's not going into general revenue.

DR: OK, but Hedy, you're admitting though that the wholesale level increase will translate into retail prices that are higher...

HF: Absolutely!

DR: ...for food, for power, for fuel, for everything, right?

HF: Yeah, it's already happening.

DR: So you don't have to put a tax on the wholesale level, it's already happening.

HF: Yes, we're helping people to defray those costs.

DR: OK, hang on.  Hedy Fry.  I'm confuuuuuused.  Back after this.

[commercial break]

DR:  Hedy Fry is with me.  I've got a minute.  That's not enough time to do anything.

HF: OK, you said you were confused. 

DR: Oh yeah.

HF: Bottom line is we want to reduce carbon emissions, fight pollution and global warming.  So we want to shift from people who are polluting to help people to not...

DR: But how is that is going to stop...

HF: Back into into people's pocket to so that they can be able to (a) sustain the costs they're paying now but (b) we're rewarding green technology, we're rewarding people who are doing carbon sequestration, so people in Alberta and Saskatchewan who are already doing that, but that they're going to get money back to help them to continue to move on to cleaner fuels, to cleaner gas, to cleaner oil, to help to make that happen.  We've got to do it somehow, and we want to reward that sort of good behavior.

DR: But you're punishing me for my normal behaviour.  Prices for my everything are going up.

HF: And so you're going to get money to help you do that.

DR: A hundred and fifty bucks?

HF: We're lowering income taxes, you know.  The 15% tax level is going to go down to 13.5%, that's a 10% decrease in taxes.  The 22% tax level is going down to 21%, that's a 5% reduction in taxes.  The 26% tax level is going down to 25%, that's middle income, that's a 4% reduction in taxes.  Businesses are going to get are getting a 1% tax cut.  And medium size and small businesses are getting a 2% cut.

DR: So it's a tax plan!

HF: It is helping people to deal.  Everyone is paying the high cost of it right now.

DR: Hedy, all right, thanks for adding...that opinion.  I appreciate it.

HF: OK.

DR: Hedy Fry, Liberal MP, Vancouver Centre.  Any more clear for you?