Um Steve. Glad I commented first, hope the rest are as civilized. ;?)

Posted by: Fergy at June 25, 2007 12:08 PM

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Strange, isn't it, that some people believe not one comma can be changed in the Canada Health Act, which received royal assent on April 1, 1984, yet the definition of traditional marriage, a centuries' old institution, can be discarded so cavalierly.

Posted by: Gabby in QC at June 25, 2007 12:31 PM

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I guess I was 14 years of age when the Anglican church announced they were removing the words "Father", "Him", and "He" from all Hymnal songs and scripture readings and replacing them with "God", "Creator", and "Divine Spirit".

Essentially, they neutered their faith...and they have been dying ever since.

Angry, you are absolutely correct; this minority wants to belong to something, anything.

I'll take it one step further; socialists/liberals want to use this group as their own hammer to smash any institution that puts God before government and any faith that asks people to consider their responsiblities before their own "rights".

Posted by: accidentwaitingtohappen at June 25, 2007 12:33 PM

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I haven't seen all this "fury" you talk about, but I do agree that this vote wasn't that big of a deal, but for rather different resaons than yours. It's not a big deal because it simply reaffirms that, generally, Anglicans in Canada don't think same-sex relationships are such a big deal, that they don't have a problem with them being blessed by the clergy of the Church, and that they think such blessings should just go ahead on an individual diocese's authority. According to the votes, only the bishops disagree... barely.

I'd say that the statement "the Anglican Church might very well change its position one day on this issue" is an understatement in the extreme. The "important" vote was on whether or not blessing same-sex unions violated the Church's core doctrine, and the clear winner on that question was "no, it doesn't". I'd say that alone was a pretty big step.

The second question was essentially, given that blessing same-sex unions does not violate the Church's core doctrine (based on the first vote) should individual diocese be allowed to start giving blessings on their own authority, or should the Church as a whole need to make that decision. The one and only reason the second vote didn't simply allow priests to start blessing (or continue blessing) these relationships right away on their own authority was that the vote needed a TRIPLE MAJORITY, not a simple majority to pass. One needed a majority of the laity, a majority of the clergy and a majority of the bishops to win the vote, and those in favour of the blessing only got 2 out of three (and as Meatloaf said...). On the simple vote, undivided, there was a clear 163-133 vote in FAVOUR of dioceses being allowed to simply start blessing unions on their own authority. The layity voted 79-59 in favour of allowing diocese to simply perform the blessings, and the clergy voted 63-53 in favour. The stopper was the bishops, who voted narrowly (21-19) against allowing diocese to simply move on their own authority.

Seems to me, that leaves the Church in the position of having affirmed that these types of blessings are not contrary to Church doctrine, having demonstrated that a majority of the laity, AND a majority of the clergy believe such blessings should simply be allowed to go ahead on the diocese's authority, and that the split amongst BISHOPS is just 52/48 against the dioceses doing this on their own. Personally, I was surprised this came down to essentially a veto by the bishops brought about by a SINGLE vote (one bishop changes his vote and it's 20-20... wouldn't THAT have been fun).

Now, bishops are BISHOPS, but it still seems to me that once a majority of your followers believe something, and a majority of your priests believe the same thing, it would inevitably be the BISHOPS who would eventually change their tune.

Any heated rhetoric against these votes (by those in favour of SSM, or these blessing of SS relationships) is kinda silly, given that the results were really overwhelmingly on their side of the argument. When the bishops of your Church need to veto a vote by the clergy and laity, and can only barely manage to do so by a single vote, it's not the bishop's who are likely to win the day in the long run, imho.

Posted by: Lord Kitchener's Own at June 25, 2007 12:58 PM

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accidentwaitingtohappen: 'good moniker for the Anglican Church of Canada (ACC)(!) of which, until recently, I was a cradle member.

You're quite right. In addition to Steve's theory that gays and lesbians desperately want to belong, and therefore are aggressively importuning Christian churches to let them in, they also have a wish to smash the Institution which stands in the way of their lifestyle being sanctioned and supported.

The vast majority of the Christian Church in the world does not and will not sanction the gay lifestyle, in the form of blessing same-sex unions, despite what North American Protestant Churches are doing. IMO, most activist gays want no part of the Christian Church, except to humiliate it and its believers, and to bring them to their knees.

Having said that, I am clear that there are sincere and loving individuals who regard blessing same-sex unions as "the loving thing to do," while leaving out the part of the Christian faith which calls upon its members to "sin no more."

That's the crux of the matter. Of course Jesus loves all individuals. What He doesn't love, however, is sin--a fact that the supporters of the Church's blessing same-sex unions cavalierly leave out of the equation.

Gay activists are, almost by definition, in a rage against anyone who doesn't sanction their lifestyle. In their narcissism, they would gladly destroy anyone or anything that stands in the way of their being "accepted." As the Christian Church, by and large, fits the definition of an institution which stands in the way of their aspirations, they would gladly see it ruined.

Sadly, in the case of the UCC (United Church of Canada) and the ACC, they may just be successful, especially ironic as these are the two churches that have capitulated to most of the gay activists' demands.

Posted by: 'been around the block at June 25, 2007 04:21 PM

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The Anglicans have succumbed. Same sex marriage/blessing will be done at the discretion of the Priest in any given Parish, watch for it. The vote concluded nothing.

The homosexual people are getting everything they want. They managed to have our government change the definition of marriage, an absolute outrageous spectacle in itself. Now they've moved on to take on the churches, not happy with civil arrangements, they want blessings.

If the churches have given up on the teachings of the Christian bible,how can they profess to be followers of the faith and pick and choose what parts they wish to follow?

They're becoming nothing but shams.

What's next in the gay activist romp? They've taken the word "gay" from our English language and claimed it as their own, they've taken the rainbow as a symbol, they've made a mockery of the institution of marriage, rendering it a farce, now they wish to tear down the doctrine of the Christian Churches.
This is not about religion, it's about notoriety.
Anyone who thinks it's not about notoriety hasn't seen a "Gay Pride" parade. No straight people would be allowed to carry on like that.

Homosexual people have the same rights in law as all other law abiding people. They can live together and have civil, legal arrangements, share whatever. What more do they need?

Posted by: Libby at June 25, 2007 07:46 PM

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Libby, that about covers all the bases. Well said!!

History documents quite well that all the Christian Churches of today are the result of disagreement with existing doctrine. The Church of England (Anglican) did not try to force divorce on the Catholic Church of the day...a new Church was formed. The same during the Reformation when Martin Luther started a new movement...they did not try to change the existing Churches.

If having a Church that condoned homsexual relationships is so important to them, I have no quarrel whatsoever with those people starting their own sect, and leave the others alone.

Posted by: Conrad at June 25, 2007 09:06 PM

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On the other hand, I and my mates are stuck inside our United Church, trying to fend off fruity edicts from the Ontario head-office high-ups. Now the UCC is trying to jam their new, gay "Song of Faith" statement into its reluctant congregations, and we on the periphery are trying to resist. We don't want to leave because all our friends are here, but we can't accept a weak, effeminate theology as decreed by the elected gay commies in our head office. So we're revolting - quietly, of course, by encouraging the revolutionaries at The Alliance of Covenenting Concregations. Naturally, we don't want our pastor to be fired for participating in a revolutionary movement, so we're all skulking around Tim Horton's on Sundays. So many have left the UCC that we're just a few remaining old farts manning the parapets. That we're still here doesn't mean that we accept the present state of affairs. We're just hanging on, muttering about the perils of gay leaders, hoping for a miracle.

Posted by: JJJoseph at June 25, 2007 10:09 PM

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I'm still waiting for one of these activist to show up at a mosque or a sikh temple and get them to except gay unions. I don't think we should hold our breath.

Did anyone catch how excited Mayor Miller was at the Gay Pride parade. Do you think he would be jumping around and hugging people at a MILATARY PRIDE PARADE?

Posted by: rod at June 25, 2007 10:33 PM

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MILITARY not MILATARY.

Posted by: rod at June 25, 2007 10:39 PM

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I left the UCC when it became gay friendly and did not cross over the ACC because it lacked a firm foundation with which it could repell the attacks of those who seek to destroy the authority of the church. While I think that a few gays want to belong to the church I also believe that most want to destroy the church because they think the church stands against their chosen life style.

Posted by: joe at June 25, 2007 11:30 PM

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Angry;

Twice in your post you refer to the people who are angry over at Bable as atheists. Did they declare themselves as atheists or are you just making an assumption. I ask because I get the feeling from your post that you think all homosexuals are atheists. I am neither homosexual nor atheist, just curious about what you're thinking.

Posted by: Iron Oxide at June 26, 2007 08:23 AM

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Homosexuals will never go near a Mosque, that is one religion absolutely intolerant of such a lifestyle. In the Muslim ruled countries they'd lose their heads and that's the end of their story.

David Miller is true to his socialist base.
Armies are for clearing snow and sand bagging against floods.

He could barely speak when he was forced by public opinion to say he supported the troops. He had the gall to say he changed his mind on the support the troops logos on public
vehicles because three more soldiers were killed.

There's something askew when a public figure can get all excited about the likes of a Gay Pride parade with people in varying states of undress, not allowed in our civil society for straight people.

If it weren't for the Armies of brave men in two world wars
the Lefties and all manner of Socialist creeps would not be enjoying their freedoms.
They just don't get the concept of sometimes having to fight to protect our Country and all she was built on and stands for. One thing for certain, with their attitudes, they are not worth fighting for.

Posted by: Libby at June 26, 2007 08:32 AM

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BATB,

You say that "until recently" you were a member of the ACC. The mindless drift of our Church began more than a generation ago and proceeded lockstep with the evolution of Trudeaupia. What finally pushed you to your decision?

The bowdlerizing of the Book of Common Prayer (described by Melanie Phillips as having occurred under the aegis of a committee "composed of Karl Marx, Tony Blair and Noddy") drove many of us away, some of whom have moved to Rome. We are hoping that Rome will remain steadfast.

I still love the old Anglican hymns though; I don't think I'll ever be able to stop singing them.

Posted by: felis corpulentis at June 26, 2007 09:31 AM

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'Am not at liberty, felis corpulentis, to tell you my story at this time. Suffice it to say that had it not been for an extenuating circumstance I would have left the Anglican Church of Canada long ago: God knows. As it was, I fought the good fight for a very long time, it seems to no avail.

'Two interesting faux pas on the part of the retiring Primate on Sunday, while the vote was being held to allow same-sex blessings in the ACC: At one point he said "the revolution," referring to "the resolution" before Synod and when the count was in for the "Yes" votes in the order of clergy, he moved on before asking those NOT in favour of the resolution to stand. He caught his mistake, but it spoke volumes about his regard for Anglican clergy who are not in favour of the ACC blessing s-s unions.

As for juxtaposing "revolution" with "resolution": This vote is nothing short of a revolution in the ACC. Primate Andrew Hutchison laughed when he realized his Freudian slip. Sadly, this is no laughing matter.

Posted by: 'been around the block at June 26, 2007 10:23 AM

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...Hmmm, I seem to remember reading some sort of science fiction book about the last days on earth being one of chaos. Wonder if anyone remembers the name of it. They used to read this in schools and in community buildings.

Society values, greed, confusion, changing amongst the masses. Something about calling evil good, and good evil, and just outright weird how to love someone.

Dang if I can remember the name or where I read that, must have been in that archive I stumbled across in the library basement - guess the Firemen from 51 Precinct (Fahrenheit) didn't get to them yet, hope I don't get in trouble posting it on here...

...ah here it is, just a sec as I dust off the pages.

Right -

------------
Isaiah 5:20
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
----------

Naw, what did this Isaiah guy know what would happen some 2500 years later?

Oh wait, here's another interesting chap...Timothy. Wonder if it is the same guy who started Tim Hortons coffee shops?

---------------
2 Timothy 3:1-5

v1: "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come

v2: "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

v3: "Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

v4: "Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

v5:Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
----------

Wow, those are heavy words, no wonder the government banned this book. So dividing and non-loving, don't these guys know to go with the flow?

Oh wait here is something else from the gladiator times or something like that I guess...

---------------
Romans 1:27-28
22: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23: "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.

24: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25: "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature

v27: "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

v28: "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

v29: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers

v30: "Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

v31: "Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

v32: "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
-------

Holy Moly! Dunno, but here's something else:

Galatians 6:7 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

-----------------------

Time to repent folks and cry out for God's mercy for our children's and grand children's sake,

What kind of future do we leave them?

Perverted Tolerance?

Yep. Like that frog in lukewarm water.

Posted by: tomax7 at June 26, 2007 11:00 AM

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Most people don't ask to be part of a religion; they are forced to be part of it by their parents and schooling. The fact that they're gay is not really considered when they are infants being baptized, I imagine. If they or any religion wants to keep out teh gays, maybe they should stop indoctrinating people before they've reached the point of sexual (and intellectual) maturity.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap, or words to that effect. Tomax Number Seven might know where that's from.

Posted by: M@ at June 26, 2007 11:30 AM

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BATB,

I hope my question was not too importunous; I'm sorry if it was.

You mentioned the retiring Primate, Andrew Hutchison, and his giveaways. Until reading his name in your last post, I did not know who was the Primate. In light of your description, it's just as well.

In fact, I have to go back pretty far to locate a Primate whose name I do remember. There were Walter Barfoot, then Howard Clark (who confirmed me) and Ted Scott, whose primacy drove me out. After that, I'd have to google "Primate" to see who they were.

I agree it is no laughing matter for those who want to remain faithful. This includes several members of my family.

Posted by: felis corpulentis at June 26, 2007 01:54 PM

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As an atheist, I am disturbed by the comments of other atheists...namely that the church should do whatever is fashionable at the time (essentially).

I do not believe this, the church should be allowed to do whatever it wants (within the law of course)...if you don't like it, go elsewhere. Why should the church be forced to change for the sake of the minority, not only change but turn their backs on their core beliefs. Strange.

Really if you don't like it, don't go...or start your own "church". Tradition should not necessarily be at the whim of popular opinion.

By the way Steve:

Churches are not supported by tax dollars, ...

[By the way, not being taxed is not the same as being supported. A tax is a punishment -- not being taxed should be the natural, default state, and not something special.]

I think this is flawed logic...exclusion of taxation is a form of support...I mean taxes on cigarettes are high to curb smoking, correct? Taxation is recognized as a means of government regulation, so therefor not taxing something is akin to promotion. Further, donations to the church are tax deductible, correct? Thus encouraging people to donate to the church, which is in fact support.

Please correct me if I am wrong anyone.

Cheers,

BIG S

Posted by: at June 26, 2007 06:38 PM

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...BIG S you gotta look at the big picture. Circle logic doesn't always work.

Churches support a lot of volunteer organizations and fill a lot of the gaps that big government or local institutions miss.

So, revenue neutral I'd say in giving them a tax break on the land.

You also get tax receipts for helping the Cancer Society, and while this encourages giving, you are stretching the point in saying by doing so, then a church is government supported institution per se.

It is voluntary. Don't give to the church then. Give to AA. Atheists Anonymous?

Or Agnostics who stay up all night wondering if there is a Dog.

Posted by: tomax7 at June 26, 2007 07:50 PM

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felis corpulentis: No need to apologize for your question. It's a good one! I wish I could tell my story because it's full of adventures and misadventures and having to try to be patient and loving in spite of watching one's church go first up then down in flames.

I think that Howard Clark was a saint, or at least, a very fine priest and Primate. Ted Scott was an entirely different matter, as was Michael Peers, and now, Andrew Hutchison. All liberals, all privileged, and all bearing the white man's burden of guilt, which is one of the reasons why so much of their reasoning, or what passes for reasoning, is so skewed and out in left field.

The social gospel seems about all they can muster in the Gospel department and Jesus Christ and His tenets seem to be remnants from a murky past, which they seem not to deign to remember.

When Church leaders (sic) are embarrassed by their faith and spend most of their time apologizing for it, you know you're in deep trouble. The Anglican Church of Canada is in deep trouble and has been for a very long time.

Pax, felis corpulentis!

I'm fully sympathetic to where you're coming from.

Posted by: 'been around the block at June 26, 2007 08:53 PM

---

BTW, tomax7: Thanks for the stroll through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures! Well-said--or, at least, well presented!

And, you're right about all the good that the churches do, and which the average Canadian has no idea of. If churches were taxed, people would be reeling because of all of the small and big charitable outreach that WOULDN'T be happening. Churches can, and do, provide services to the public, especially the most needy, at far less expense than government programs and churches have been providing these services for far longer than any government agency: how about for centuries?

What galls me, is the number of people who are critical of the Christian Church but who, really, have no idea what so many Christian churches actually do. There are a lot of negative urban myths, many perpetrated by the very secular humanist MSM, which are just plain inaccurate and mean-spirited.

Posted by: 'been around the block at June 26, 2007 09:00 PM

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BATB: "Ted Scott was an entirely different matter, as was Michael Peers, and now, Andrew Hutchison. All liberals, all privileged, and all bearing the white man's burden of guilt, which is one of the reasons why so much of their reasoning, or what passes for reasoning, is so skewed and out in left field."

And this new guy, Hiltz, seems to be, from what I can find out, also cut from the liberal cloth. While I was googling for Primates, I discovered some other material about the way of the ACC since I moved on. It seems like someone (you would probably be familiar with this person) did a study that demonstrated an average decline of 2% per year in ACC membership over the last 40 years. Also that there are 11 Canadian parishes overseen by the episcopacy in Rwanda. I hadn't realized that the reverse African missionary work had proceeded that far.

When I was a youngster in the choir in St, John's Cathedral, the place was full a lot of the time. I guess it rarely is now.

Guilt: it seems to be the currency of the left. Instead of social engineering, they should be taking a page from our mediaeval past and doing penance and self-flagellation. Do you think self-flagellation would have looked good on Andrew Hutchison? A little fasting and prayer wouldn't hurt either.

Thanks for the kind words. Maybe some day you will be able to tell your interesting story.

Posted by: felis corpulentis at June 26, 2007 10:45 PM

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batb: "...well presented! And, you're right..."

Gawrsh, danks!

Cheque's in the mail eh...

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Posted by: tomax7 at June 27, 2007 10:48 PM

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BIGS said"...Further, donations to the church are tax deductible, correct?"

Actually, donations to a church are not automatically deductible. What's deductible are donations to CHARITY. "Charity" is helping someone in need with no expectation of any return. To gain tax deductibility, an organization such as a church, must be registered as a charity with Canada Revenue, and prove that it does charitable works for the community in its annual audit. It's not possible to collect charitable donations and buy real estate, for instance. You'll just irritate Canada Revenue and get yourself into deep doodoo with the usual Canada Revenue consequences.

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