Ha - my memory is not quite as poor as I thought - good digging Steve !

It would be great fun to see Duffy bring this up in person with Holland !

Posted by: Concerned Torontonian at March 29, 2007 10:41 AM

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I do not know if Janke is doing all these "missing boxes" posts on his own, or on behalf of the incompetent sloth at the PMO who failed to do his/her job and is in massive CYA mode.

The facts are as follows:

1. The PMO person in charge did not have a rigorous process for ensuring a strict chain of custody.

2. The PMO, apparently, did not know for a full year that these boxes were missing! Did anybody from the PMO ASK the Liberals to return them? Ever?

3. The PMO, clearly, would never have known of the missing boxes, and would have been completely blindsided by the revelations in an election campaign. They still may, because I don't think they know today what was in the boxes to begin with.

Therefore, this is not Holland's fault, or the Liberal Party's fault, or Speaker Milliken's fault.

The fault lies entirely with the PMO person who was in charge of the move and failed to do his/her job.

No question. No spin.

Posted by: at March 29, 2007 11:40 AM

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In fact Duffy asked one of his co-horts at CTV, Robert Fife, what he thought of it. Fife said thats politics. The liberals and conservatives would both do the same thing. This from a supposedly unbiased journalist. It seems all reporters do is create a false moral equivalence and thats the end of the story. Nothing to report here. Move along.

I can handle Duffy, sometimes. But Fife is a liberal ass licker. Last week it was another knock against Harper from Fife, because in the House the PM asked the libs if they ever asked questions about our Canadian soldiers instead of worrying about the Taliban. Fife's righteous indignation was sickening.

Posted by: MikeP at March 29, 2007 11:41 AM

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Hey look ^- Mark Holland just posted!

Posted by: Slider at March 29, 2007 11:43 AM

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The first comment is either Holland or a Liberal apologist. According to this person there is no obligation on Holland's part to return property not belonging to him. How repugnant.

"No question. No spin"

--and no morals. Even children know this is wrong.

Posted by: Larry at March 29, 2007 11:58 AM

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Keeping property that doesn't belong to you is a crime.

Posted by: Brian in Calgary at March 29, 2007 12:08 PM

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And Larry is obviously a kiss-ass.

Deal with the PMO "Incompetencia Buttocks" first, and then we'll talk about the morals of politicians - Liberal or Conservative.

Changing the subject/channel does not obscure this fact: the Harper PMO did NOT KNOW for 12+ months that sensitive files - boxes of them - were missing.

How can anyone defend that with a straight face?

Posted by: at March 29, 2007 12:11 PM

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Its not a crime if the person doesn't know they lost it and doesn't ask for it back. Right? Just ask the OLG, they'll tell ya!!!

1. That little old lady didn't even have the right prescription for her glasses.

2. She didn't even know she had a winning ticket!

3. Her processes for accessing and redeeming the ticket were terrible. If we hadn't been found out she would have had no idea!

Posted by: Eric-Vancouver at March 29, 2007 12:26 PM

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Changing the subject/channel does not obscure this fact: the Harper PMO did NOT KNOW for 12+ months that sensitive files - boxes of them - were missing.

How can anyone defend that with a straight face?

-Mark Holland being at least smart enough not to sock puppet

Missing boxes as some sort of indefensible ethical flaw?

Pardon me? Could you explain further?

Posted by: Eric-Vancouver at March 29, 2007 12:29 PM

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"2. The PMO, apparently, did not know for a full year that these boxes were missing! Did anybody from the PMO ASK the Liberals to return them? Ever?"

Do you ever think for yourself? Honestly, when was the last time you think your boss looked at old, archived personnel files? Only a fool thinks that every business or organization would be thinking about every single box they ever filled with documents at all times.

The boxes were clearly marked for delivery, and as Steve has pointed out, the only people in charge of knowing how many were supposed to be moved versus how many arrived was the Board of Internal Economy. The Conservatives would have arranged the boxes to be delivered and said how many were to be delivered. If things are missing, it isn't the PMO who's in trouble, it's the BoIE and the Speaker of the House because they were given a certain number of boxes and not all of the boxes arrive.

If FedEx knows when a certain number of packages goes out and not all of them arrive, don't you think a House of Commons body like the BoIE should have the same responsibility instead of simply saying that everything was delivered?

But just go right ahead ignoring the only real ethical question so that you can continue to live without the rational thought that sees what is wrong with this picture. The fact that you don't see the ethical problem of somebody rifling through packages addressed to somebody else only points to your own lack of ethics or your blind faith in the Liberals.

Honestly, one question... do you not think it was wrong for Holland and Jennings to go through somebody else's mail? From what you have said, there's nothing wrong with doing what is illegal for you and I: opening somebody else's mail.

Posted by: Surecure at March 29, 2007 12:30 PM

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1. I do these posts on my own.
2. The point to consider is that if these boxes were labelled to be moved by the House of Commons facilities people, then opening them up and rifling through them is not an offence against the Conservative Party, but against the House of Commons. That's a very different kettle of fish than merely finding a file in the bottom of drawer.
3. Would the Conservatives do the same if the situation was reversed? Maybe, or maybe not. But we know what the Liberals would do. Arguing that the other guy is probably as ethically challenged is pretty lame as a defence.
4. The Liberals are on a fishing expedition, reviewing potentially thousands of personal files hoping to find something, not knowing what exactly, treating everything with suspicion. This was not a directed leak from a disgruntled Tory or public servant.
5. We know what the Liberals have chosen to make public. What we don't know is what information they have found that someone might find embarrassing and that they're using as blackmail extortion leverage.
6. These are old boxes, out of thousands. The CPC is probably doing an audit right now. Should one have been done before? Obviously. But then there was no reason to think that it was required. Everyone just figured the Speaker of the House and his people got the job done, as they've managed to do over and over again. Until someone had reason to go into these files, no one suspected they weren't where they were supposed to be. Clearly there is some culpability there, but I don't it carries over into negligence. No one considered that so much material could be misplaced (or deliberately hidden, which changes everything).
7. Again, since some people don't believe me, I do these posts on my own.

Posted by: Steve Janke at March 29, 2007 12:43 PM

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Surecure :: Of course, it was wrong for Holland/Jennings to rifle through the boxes. No question.

But, that's what political Oppo Research is all about. Do you honestly believe that the Conservatives would have behaved any differently if they had found a bunch of Liberal Party boxes in their possession? If you do, then there are parcels of land in Florida that ....

The core problem here is "incompetence". The PMO is being run by a f**king idiot.

Why, it was only yesterday that the Prime Minister had to admit (and, of course, CBC broadcast it) in the House that he DID NOT KNOW that the Head of State of a foreign country (Liberia, in this case) was in the country and had requested a meeting with him!

How can this sort of thing happen in a professionally managed PMO?

Dion is bringing in a new Chief of Staff. Perhaps, it is time for Harper to do the same before they start stacking moving boxes at 24 Sussex.

Posted by: at March 29, 2007 12:46 PM

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More "class" posting from potty-mouth Posted by: at March 29, 2007 12:46 PM.

Posted by: terrence at March 29, 2007 01:35 PM

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OK heres an analogy for the confused.
I just moved into my new house last week and was unpacking things and storing stuff in the basement when I come across some old boxes of stuff from the previous owner in the closet under the stairs.
Do I
A) Rifle through the items and keep what seeems likely to benefit myself before returning the stuff to its rightful owner?
B) Phone the previous owner and explain that I have their stuff and they can come over and pick it up anytime.
C) Do A and also report a suspicious looking pipe that smells sorta skunky to the police?
Well if your the Official opposition it seems it would be acceptable to do C.
Whos to complain? We all new the Liberals would do this type of thing.
Whomever didn't move the boxes and was in charge of the materials should get spanked hard.

Posted by: Hlyrad at March 29, 2007 01:35 PM

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Yes, didn't know the head of Liberia was in town. Yes, that's devastating. Our relationship with Liberia is sure to suffer.

Posted by: Rob G. at March 29, 2007 01:45 PM

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The Conservatives, have on a point of privelege, just asked that Holland be regarded as having acted "in comtempt of Parliament". They used the label on one of the boxes to support their case. The Speaker is giving Holland a chance to respond, before he makes a ruling!!

Posted by: Hunter at March 29, 2007 02:52 PM

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I've shaken Mark Holland's hand. I still haven't been able to wash it clean.

When I got a new role in my company, I got my Department Manager's old office. (He got promoted.) It was full of boxes. After a couple days, I needed to file some stuff. So I open up my desk drawer and looked for a hanging folder. Inside was a personnel evaluation. I immediately put it back. I did a couple random checks of the boxes. They were job applications/resumes/aptitude test scores. I taped them all up, marked them as CONFIDENTIAL, called my Section Manager to get the movers to pick them up. He didn't have anywhere to store them, so he never did pick them up. When our department moved out of the building two years later. My new boss shipped them to this managers office and let him deal with it.

By reading these files or keeping these files I would not only have been violating the privacy of my boss, but all the individuals who had private information inside. It was none of my business to know. (That one page I read told me stuff I never wanted to know.) The typical MP receives 1000's of letters asking for help with personal matters. People spill their guts to get help because they're desperate. What kind of person violates their privacy?

Without a doubt, the payment to the Alliance MP needs to be investigated further. It seems unethical, if nothing else. However, the evidence is now tainted. Also, the records management of the PMO has been poor in this circumstance. The PMO owes Canadians an apology. It's not easy dealing with paper records (just looking at my office now!!!) but it's no excuse.

However, if Mark Holland doesn't come clean with what happened here, he could create a mini-Watergate. Nixon had staff Hollandize Democratic papers and files. Who knows whether they found any dirt, but that's what they were looking for. The end did not justify the means.

How far will the Liberals go to cover this up?

Posted by: PlaidShirt at March 29, 2007 03:56 PM

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"The fact that you don't see the ethical problem of somebody rifling through packages addressed to somebody else only points to your own lack of ethics or your blind faith in the Liberals."

A-men

Posted by: Larry at March 29, 2007 04:30 PM

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I would have Holland arrested the sneaky little ass wipe. And Millikin should reprimanded also as it was his job to deliver the boxes or ensure they were delivered.Dion should be charged with something because he allowed this crap to happen.He is a very unethical slimeball as are all the Liberals.I listened to them all squeeling during question period,boy what a bunch of rats and they want to govern this country.This RCMP investigation is freaking them out.I wonder if any of them are starting to worry??

Posted by: bert at March 29, 2007 05:05 PM

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Why the boxes were left to be "discovered" is not the issue (unless they had deliberately been removed from the mover's sight) nor is the content of the boxes an issue. Neither is who was responsible for shipping a major issue. As I see it, the issue is one of unauthorized individuals breaking into sealed boxes properly labelled for shipping to the desired destination. I believe postal employees have been fired for such transgressions concerning the mail, and there isn't a whole lot of difference here....only postage stamps are missing. This incident should be treated the same...no union would be able to defend the guilty.

Posted by: Conrad at March 29, 2007 05:23 PM

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You know, when proffesional movers move house, they put a numbered tag on each box when packing it. When loading they make a checklist of which boxes were loaded. When they unload (ie at your new location), they make a second checklist of boxes unloaded. The parliamentary movers clearly tag the boxes. Assuming they follow proffessional procedures, it might be really interesting to get your hands on the two checklists for this move...

It would clearly illustrate at which stage the box was "lost". Not to mention who signed off on the two lists...

Posted by: temp at March 29, 2007 06:43 PM

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I think the liberals are scared that their antics of the past few weeks will somehow trigger an election, and they know they will lose big time. (maybe 3rd party) and feel the only way they can discredit Harper is to link him to some scandal. Imagine their ads, See, they are as crooked as we are, and must not be re-elected to steal millions, like we did and will. On top of that, they can't get candidates to be sacrificial lambs, as they can't promise patronage positions. I imagine the conservative ads are ready, showing dion saying, We need an election as soon as possible, or the one where he misspoke and said I want to be leader of the world. Truth ads work better than attack ads. With the facts out on the net that it is/was the Speakers job to see all boxes are moved from one office to another office, the blame might fall on him and he will have to resign, as Dion or Holland will demand. Holland should have got his facts straight before his little tirade, but maybe he got advise from the mole, or Turner.

Posted by: maryT at March 29, 2007 07:39 PM

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There is a big difference between the Duffy example and the boxes. If Duffy had opened the envelope he would have exposed himself to criminal and civil liability because the property interest in the letter had not passed to him either explicitly or implicitly.

On the other hand, in law , the property interest in the boxes passed to the Libs via abandonment and/or other doctrines. If you leave something behind for over a year - and particularly when you've been told twice ( if I correctly recall the original blurb I read on this) that you've left something behind - and don't retrieve the item then you loose your property interest in the item.

Posted by: Nbon at March 29, 2007 08:08 PM

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"If you leave something behind for over a year - and particularly when you've been told twice ( if I correctly recall the original blurb I read on this) that you've left something behind - and don't retrieve the item then you loose your property interest in the item."

With all due respect that sounds more like a schoolyard argument than law. I think a lawyer could argue that government documents, labelled with a government seal and in a government building is NOT like leaving a briefcase in an airport!

Posted by: Larry at March 29, 2007 08:54 PM

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