Rudely calling Quebec a hotbed of anti-Semitism
Andre Pratt is upset. The Editorial Pages Editor at La Presse takes issue with Barbara Kay's piece for the National Post, "The rise of Quebecistan". In it, Kay makes the argument that Quebec is a place where anti-Semites and those who support terrorism (or at least are sympathetic with their goals) can feel welcome and at home.
Andre Pratte may not like what Barbara Kay is saying, but the facts seem to support her position.
From Barbara Kay:
In his Montreal Gazette column yesterday, Don MacPherson projected a worrying Quebec trend with startling candour: "It's finally becoming respectable again to express support for terrorists."
So it has. On Sunday, 15,000 Quebecers, mostly Lebanese-Canadians, marched for "justice and peace" in Lebanon. That sounds benign, but in fact the march was a virulently anti-Israel rally, and scattered amongst the crowd were a number of Hezbollah flags and placards. Leading the parade were Bloc Quebecois chief Gilles Duceppe, Liberal MP Denis Coderre, PQ chief Andre Boisclair, and Amir Khadir, spokesman for the new far-left provincial party, Solidarite Quebec.
All four politicians had signed a statement by the organizers the day before the march, in which Israel is lambasted for its depredations in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank -- but the word "terrorism" is never mentioned, nor Hezbollah assigned any blame for the war.
As a sop to the Quebec-Israel Committee, which had taken out full-page ads calling on the march's leaders to condemn terrorism, however, they called for the disarming of Hezbollah as part of a negotiated ceasefire.
For this, they were roundly booed by the crowd.
Andre Pratt thinks Barbara Kay is prejudiced. Not wrong, mind you. Just prejudiced:
According to Barbara Kay's Aug. 9 article, "The Rise of Quebecistan," Quebec is a haven for Hezbollah supporters and for anti-Semitic and anti-American ideologues. An independent Quebec, she predicts, would rapidly become a new "Londonistan."
As a Quebec federalist -- and a journalist who has repeatedly supported Israel's right to defend itself, and denounced Quebec politicians' criticism of Stephen Harper's handling of the Lebanese crisis -- I was dumbfounded by Ms. Kay's prejudice.
He then simply denies Kay's assertion on the basis that Quebeckers like to make money, go to movies, and listen to music:
She also denounces Quebecers' "reflexive anti-Americanism" and their "fat streak of anti-Semitism." That Quebec, the "Quebecistan" of her thesis, simply does not exist.
A huge majority of Quebecers are strongly against George W. Bush's policies, that's for sure. Does that make them "anti-American"? If they are, why has Quebec been more supportive of free trade than Ontario? How can one explain the very close relationships Quebec maintains with the north-eastern states and the fact that Quebecers travel in huge numbers to the United States? How about the popularity of American music and movies in Quebec?
How does listening to American music absolve you of anti-Semitism? Let me see if I can follow this: a large portion of the population listens to American music, therefore they like Americans (and not just their music) but hate George W Bush whom Americans elected as their president, so therefore Quebeckers are not anti-Semitic.
Still doesn't make much sense.
Is Barbara Kay prejudiced? Can she not see that because Quebeckers like music, they must be cosmopolitan and sophisticated, and thus not receptive to anti-Semitic and generally racist thinking? I can't see the logic either, so maybe I'm prejudiced too. Or just unsophisticated.
Still, I keep trying. How about more solid data than musical preferences?
The year 2000 saw an extraordinarily sharp rise in antisemitic incidents in Quebec. These were connected mainly with white supremacy activity, Middle East related incidents, and events surrounding the so-called Michaud affair. This affair began in December 2000 when former member of the Quebec legislature (the National Assembly) and Parti Quebecois nationalist hardliner Yves Michaud announced his intention to seek the party’s nomination in the Montreal area riding of Mercier. A few days earlier, when interviewed on CKAC radio he said: “It’s about you [Jews]. You’re the only people in the world to have suffered in the history of humanity. I had just about had it.” The next day, in a brief to the Estates General on Language, he suggested that the residents of a largely Jewish suburb of the City of Montreal were anti-Quebec, referring to them as immigrants, despite the fact that most had been born and raised in Quebec. The National Assembly voted unanimously to condemn Michaud for his remarks.
Antisemitism in the Montreal area increased markedly in the year 2000, particularly following the outbreak of violence in the Middle East. There were 71 reported antisemitic acts in 2000, an 87 percent increase over the 37 incidents recorded in 1999 and a 255 percent increase over the 20 incidents reported in 1998.
Montreal Jews were victims of vandalism, threats, and a number of assaults resulting in bodily harm. For example, on 10 October two individuals attacked an identifiably Jewish man at a metro station in Montreal, knocking him unconscious. Bystanders intervened when the attackers tried to throw him onto the subway rails. Further, a rabbi was harassed and insulted on a Montreal bus by 10-15 youths. When two women came to the rabbi’s aid, one was slapped and spit upon. During the weekend of Succoth, seven Jewish-owned summer homes were vandalized in Ste. Agathe, Quebec. The mezuzahs were removed and the interior of one of the houses was virtually destroyed. Graffiti on the walls included curses and the words “Die in hell.” The offenders have been identified and were to appear in a criminal youth court.
And if you want something more current than that report from 2000, here is a report from 2006 focusing on racism as well as anti-Semitism:
The SSJB [Saint-Jean-Baptiste Society] has been around since 1834, and is best known for organizing the yearly Saint-Jean-Baptiste parade in Montreal. With a membership of 3,000, it's been an influential force in Quebec, and was instrumental in the founding of several key institutions, including ecole des hautes etudes commerciales de Montreal. In years past, La Societe was also known for its rapprochements with other ethnic communities. But now many in its ranks are worried it has opened itself up to a radical fringe.
[Andre Forget, the treasurer of SSJB's downtown chapter,] is a regular at SSJB functions, and known for his devotion to the separatist cause. But on the Internet, he's known as "Moise Theriault," and has written tirades denouncing Jews, Muslims, the Koran and blacks, which he posted on the fan site of Montreal's Loco Locass -- a sovereigntist rap group that, oddly enough, is well-known for its anti-racist lyrics. "Iran wants to cross out Israel from the map and I find that super," he wrote on Oct. 26, 2005. On June 3 of that year, he wrote, "Racism is like black people, it shouldn't exist." According to Yvan Bombardier, president of the downtown chapter, Forget had to be called to order during a meeting after referring to Haitian-born Governor General Michaëlle Jean as Quebec's "nigger king."
Forget does not characterize it as a joke. He admits to having made the comment at the SSJB meeting and online under the alias "Moise Theriault." "That's a fact," he told Maclean's. "It's a term that's been used since the '60s to describe decolonization, and it's happened here in Quebec. We [usually] have nigger kings with white skin. This time we have the real thing." And it wasn't the first time "Moise Theriault" opined on black people. "Whites control the planet," he wrote on May 2, 2004. "They are far from stupid for having accomplished that. Why is it that those who denounce the 'monkey junkies' are always said to be racists?"
Monkey junkies?
Pratte makes a point that anti-Americanism (carefully evading the anti-Semitism issue) appears in English Canada:
Besides, is there no anti-Americanism in the rest of Canada? Has Ms. Kay listened to the speeches of some Liberal and NDP politicians? As far as I recall, it was not a Quebec MP who famously called Americans "bastards."
That's right. It was Carolyn Parrish. And for her comments she was roundly denounced. The issue was top of the news in English Canada for days. Ultimately she was tossed from the Liberal caucus (for that and for being an all-round pain in the butt). So yes, there have been outspoken individuals who have made their prejudices widely known. But the reaction in English Canada has been swift and the issue dealt with seriously.
Pratt then tries to shame the rest of Canada by pointing to the past:
Was anti-Semitism rampant in Quebec intellectual circles in the 1930s and 1940s? Yes. Are there still remnants of that disgusting sentiment today? Yes. But is this history of anti-Semitism unique to Quebec? Obviously not.
In the English Canada of the 1940s, recalled historian Irving Abella, "banks, insurance companies, industrial and commercial interests of importance did not hire Jews. Stores did not want Jews as salespersons. Hospitals did not admit Jewish doctors. There were no Jewish judges and Jewish lawyers were barred from most firms."
Shameful. But how far has Canada come since then? Quite far, but then that really depends on where in Canada you live:
These data, together with the findings of an attitudinal survey commissioned by the League in 2001, indicate a disturbingly higher level of prejudice in Quebec.
The survey found that 26 percent of Canadians in Quebec perceived Jews as having too much power, compared to 10 percent outside Quebec. In democratic societies, educational systems normally play an important role in attenuating inter-group antagonism. That was the pattern among francophones and Quebecers in 1986, with anti-Jewish animus abating as education level increased. However, today the pattern seems to have been reversed. Among Quebecers with high school education or less, 20 percent believed that Jews had too much power. This figure rose to 29 percent in 2001 among those with college education and 30 percent among those who had university degrees.
Remember, this represents the number of people who, when asked if they agreed with the politically charged statement "The Jews have too much power", were willing to admit they did. How many hand second thoughts and lied? Another 5%? 10%? 20% or more?
College education and university degrees are supposed to counter the intellectually barren philosphies behind racism and anti-Semitism, right?
Ms. Kay strongly disagrees with the focus of the demonstration on Israel's supposed wrongs; so do I. But from that well-founded criticism, she goes on to portray Quebec society, particularly its intellectual and political leadership, as sympathetic to Islamist terrorists in general.
Let's dig a bit deeper into the question of how the intellectual leadership in Quebec feels about Jews, Israel, and terrorism, besides the numbers I quote above:
Concordia University houses an activist Arab core, part of a much larger Arab student population there. A radical-led student union (CSU), consisting mainly of Arabs/Muslims and left-wingers/anti-globalization supporters who played ethnic politics, won an election in March 2001, with several pro-Palestinian activists taking on key roles in the new student governing body and pushing a one-sided, divisive, blame-Israel agenda. In fall 2001 the CSU published an article entitled “Uprising” (i.e., intifada), which accuses Israel of being involved in “state terror that has killed civilian men, women, and children whose only ‘crime’ is their nationality.” Another article by Laith Marouf, a vice-president of CSU, insinuated that “the ‘Jewish’ rector knows how much money the university owes to Zionists.” Marouf also alleged that “Zionists” monopolize the North American media.”
Marouf was subsequently barred from the campus for acts that included allegedly painting graffiti on university property, such as “Stop Jewish Supremacy” and “Stop Jewish Apartheid.” Marouf was active in the SPHR (Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights), a Muslim/Arab organization with strong Canadian grassroots support, which functioned not only at Concordia, but at all other Montreal universities and a few in Ontario. This group passed out literature previously carried by the Holocaust-denying Institute for Historical Review, charging Israel with developing an “ethnic bomb” that would target only Muslims.
One of the most common post-September 11 myths claimed that 4,000 Jews did not come to work at the World Trade Center because they had been warned of what would happen. A visiting professor at Montreal’s McGill University from Saudi Arabia used campus e-mail facilities to disseminate this piece of propaganda, which seems to have originated in the PLO office in Turkey. It was also heard on radio talk shows across Canada, along with the allegation that 11 September was “all the Jewish people’s fault.”
McGill University was the scene of another antisemitic episode when the student body invited an Israeli, Israel Shamir, to speak at a lecture entitled “Israel: The Racist State.” During the question and answer period, he accused an orthodox rabbi present of being “a monkey,” and mocked the religious garments he was wearing.
And this more personal incident at the Universite du Quebec à Montreal:
[Stephen Shecter, a sociology professor at the Universite du Quebec à Montreal (UQAM),] made his own report at UQAM recently. In January, when students at the university’s sociology department went on strike on issues unrelated to the Middle East, one student brandished a sign at his office that read, “Israel is a murderer and Shecter an accomplice.”
Shecter was so outraged he went to higher-ups at UQAM to protest, but was rebuffed. He then wrote an op-ed piece in the independent French language newspaper Le Devoir.
That’s when “the s--t hit the fan,” he said. He was inundated with hateful responses to his article, most of which were attacks on Israel that failed to directly address his arguments.
“Four baths were not enough, because this type of stuff sticks to your soul,” Shecter told the students.
The affair stopped only after he wrote a final piece declaring it “open season on Jews.”
Shecter said since the incident, he has stopped talking to colleagues he has known for decades.
“Ninety-five percent of my colleagues are anti-Semitic,” he said. “They hate Israel, but they don’t even see it. They don’t have a clue. Anti-Semitism parades as anti-Zionism.”
Why doesn't Pratte recognize this? One reason is that the media elite in Quebec is a product of this very same educational system. The journalists and editors in Quebec might not even be able to recognize anti-Semitism in particular and racism in general, having been raised and educated in an environment where insults and threats aimed at Jews and visible minorities are simply part of the background (literally and figuratively). Hardly remarkable, and certainly not noteworthy.
Though I can't back this up yet, I had a long conversation with one of my reporter friends, and I was told that violent assaults by skinheads targeting visible minorities is on the rise, especially outside of Montreal. Quebec City is especially bad. I was told that this news is simply not being reported in Quebec.
It certainly fits the pattern.
So Mr Pratte, I have no trouble whatsoever finding example after example, and statistic after statistic, to support what Barbara Kay is saying. She saw it with her own eyes -- the leading figures of Quebec separatist politics throwing their lot in with the terrorists and their friends. Why? Could it be that the Jewish population in Quebec is overwhelmingly federalist?
For many Quebeckers, that just counts as one more reason to hate them.
Skew my story on Skewz.com
Rate political news for their bias, read related stories, and leave your own skewed commentary
Search for more opinions from Canadian bloggers on these related keywords
Barbara Kay Andre Pratt National Post La Presse Quebec anti-Semitism
Sphere presents related news articles and blog posts
Sphere It!
Comments
Sadly, it's all true.
Posted by: PlaidShirt at August 16, 2006 12:13 PM
I serously do not know why there are so many Jews still living in Quebec. I was just in Montreal recently and even in the Jewish areas I saw plenty of cars driving around with Lebanese flags sticking outside the windows, as if this war is the World Cup.
Posted by: Jonny_eh at August 16, 2006 12:29 PM
...you mean someone in the MSM is actually calling a spade a spade regarding Quebec???
Mon Dieu!
Posted by: tomax7 at August 16, 2006 01:29 PM
Steve, you know as well as I that citing selective evidence of anti-Semitism in Quebec only creates a false impression, but in no way proves, that Quebec is more anti-Semitic than the rest of Canada. You also know as well as I that if you wanted to, you could easily find evidence and statistics showing that anti-Semitism is a problem all across Canada (which was one of Mr. Pratte's points). For example,
- this website lists 7 of the anti-Semitic incidents in Canada in 2004 -- four in Ontario, two in Quebec, and one in Calgary (generally reflecting the distribution of Jewish Canadian populations across the country);
- the same pattern is confirmed by the 2003 B'Nai Brith annual audit of anti-Semitic incidents
- moving on to more specific incidents, how about this or this or these (bottom of the page)?
Contrary to your claim that he is sidestepping the issue, Mr. Pratte seems quite aware of the current pockets of anti-Semitism in Quebec when he states, "Was anti-Semitism rampant in Quebec intellectual circles in the 1930s and 1940s? Yes. Are there still remnants of that disgusting sentiment today? Yes."
What he takes issue with is Ms. Kay's (and apparently, your) flawed logic in claiming, on the basis of politicians supporting a peaceful protest, a selective memory of anti-Semitic incidents in Canada, and Quebecers' general opposition to Bush-era U.S. foreign policy, that Quebec is therefore "the most anti-Israel of the provinces, and therefore the most vulnerable to tolerance for Islamist terrorist sympathizers." Like Ms. Kay, you are (once again) guilty of at least three logical errors: you overgeneralize about an entire group based on specific incidents, you ascribe to people psychological motivations that are unsupported or unjustified by the facts at hand, and you endorse a hypothetical future that is unsupported or unjustified by the facts at hand.
If you wish to condemn anti-Semitism, more power to you. If you wish to condemn anti-Semitism in Quebec, again, mazel tov. I'll even join you. I suspect Mr. Pratte would as well. But using anti-Semitism in Quebec as a launching board to claim that all of Quebec is anti-Semitic and thus sympathetic to terrorists only betrays your own prejudiced attitudes about Quebecers and, as Mr. Pratte notes, provides ammunition for the separatist cause.
Posted by: A at August 16, 2006 01:55 PM
But using anti-Semitism in Quebec as a launching board to claim that all of Quebec is anti-Semitic and thus sympathetic to terrorists only betrays your own prejudiced attitudes about Quebecers and, as Mr. Pratte notes, provides ammunition for the separatist cause.
Where does Steve say that ALL Quebecers are anti-Semitics?
Besides, anyone with a brain who has lived in Quebec for any length of time knows the truth: that anti-Semitism is RAMPANT in Quebec society. Are all Quebecers anti-Semitics? Of course not. But there are MANY more than you would think.
Posted by: Jack Kerouac at August 16, 2006 03:03 PM
A, I must have missed the part where Steve said all of Quebec was anti-semitic. I knew I should have stayed in school. I'd be able to glean all the hidden information you were able to extract.
Posted by: rick at August 16, 2006 03:27 PM
A: Let's apply the same rigid standard that you do. Show us the evidence that anti-Semitisism is NOT a bigger problem in Quebec. Prove this isn't so. In the meantime, choke on this:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_zolf/20060807.html
Posted by: mike s at August 16, 2006 05:01 PM
Sadly, Steve Janke is right about Quebec. I remember the news in Canadian Media about how some men attacked and burned down Jewish schools and syrangoues. I'm little scared about that.
However, Steve, I think you sidestepped around an argument Mr. Patt used. About how Quebec is not "anti-American" because of how it supports free trade more than the rest of Canada. You only replied with how Quebecers listening to American musics does not make Quebec not anti-American. I'm sorry, but that is not a good reply.
How you would reply to the assumptation about Quebec being a fan of free trade?
Posted by: Crazy Dan at August 16, 2006 05:09 PM
Individual cases, while they can be deceptive, wore often shed light on the larger background. I don't think that there's a single political leader in English Canada who would have blamed an electoral loss on "money and the ethnic vote", even if he thought it. The fact that it even entered Parizeau's mind to utter those words suggests that there is a much greater acceptance of Jew hatred in polite society in Quebec than elsewhere.
Posted by: SPare at August 16, 2006 05:11 PM
A...Quebec is in its own world.
Unfortunately the real world is paying for their sorry existance..."have not province" my arse.
Posted by: tomax7 at August 16, 2006 07:50 PM
It's old news: http://71.18.16.165/2006/07/does-canada-have-its-very-own-nazi.html
lol
Posted by: Richard Evans at August 16, 2006 08:11 PM
"How you would reply to the assumptation about Quebec being a fan of free trade?"
The answer to this is so clear I'm surprised you would even ask it.
Its money, plain ans simple. And btw, its the same reason the rest of Canada endorses it. It doesn't matter if the free trade is with the US or USSR, its to our benefit so we do it.
Horny Toad
Posted by: Horny Toad at August 16, 2006 08:33 PM
A: If Steve had actually claimed, at any point in his post, that all of Quebec was anti-semitic, you might have a point. Unfortunately, he didn't. The issue is that there is a visible and statistically significant amount of anti-semitism in Quebec, enough to warrant concern.
Toronto is significant too, but you don't need statistics to see that, we only need to look at the recent pro-Hizballah demonstrations.
The term "Quebecistan" is obviously an analogy to the muslim states, so if it's an insinuation to you that all Quebecers are anti-semites, then that would seem to indicate an underlying belief that everyone in those Muslim states is an anti-semite. But you - and most liberals - insist in no uncertain terms that muslims in these states are not anti-semitic in general. See the contradiction here? Either you're unconsciously applying a double-standard, or you're intentionally applying a straw-man argument.
Posted by: Aaron G at August 16, 2006 09:08 PM
As there are multiple comments calling me out, I'm just going to respond to everyone in one long post. See below for respective responses. I apologize if it drags on. On the plus side, no hyperlinks!
Jack Kerouac, rick, and Aaron G: Barbara Kay stated that Quebec is "the most anti-Israel of the provinces, and therefore the most vulnerable to tolerance for Islamist terrorist sympathizers." She claimed that these sympathies run not only throughout the general population, but up the ranks of the Quebec intelligensia and political elite. Her tacit implication was that anti-Semitism is more than just a marginal extremist position among a minority of Quebecers, but that it is instead a mainstream ideology across the province. Why do I detect this implication? One reason is her speculation that if Quebec were to achieve independence, it would delist Hezbollah as a terrorist organization by "day two" and begin serving almost immediately as a safe harbour for "fanatical exterminationists", so popular (in her mind) are anti-Israel and anti-American sentiments in the province. These hypotheticals could only occur with the blessing of the Quebec majority, that is to say, only if anti-Semitism were the predominant attitude permeating the region. Steve, by all appearances, agrees with her. Indeed, he helps cite evidence in her favour.
I never said that Barbara and Steve are claiming "all Quebecers are anti-Semitic"; I said that they are claiming that "all of Quebec is anti-Semitic" -- that is, that anti-Semitism is the mainstream view throughout the province, and not just restricted to small pockets. Perhaps I could have been clearer; perhaps you will accuse me of shifting my stance. Your perogative.
Now, I realize that, still, they didn't literally say the words, but the message between the lines is clear enough that I took offense, and so did Mr. Pratte. Perhaps someone could translate Ms. Kay's column, disseminate it throughout Quebec, and see what the general reaction is there.
Aaron G: You state that "there is a visible and statistically significant amount of anti-semitism in Quebec." Let's see if the numbers support your claim. As we are examining hate crimes by region, the only reasonable test of significant is whether a province's rate of hate crimes is disproportionate to the size of the victim population residing there. According to the census, 56% of Jewish Canadians lived in Ontario in 2001 (and we presume this number has not changed much in the inter-census years), but the province accounted for 62% of all anti-Semitic incidents in Canada in 2004 (according to B'nai Brith data). Quebec, meanwhile, was home to 24% of Jewish Canadians, and accounted for--lo and behold--24% of all anti-Semitic incidents (incidentally, Alberta is 4% and 4%, respectively, and the Maritimes, 2% and 2%). So, more accurately, your statement should read, "There is a visible but statistically non-significant amount of anti-semitism in Quebec (and Alberta and the Maritimes). [General note: "statistically non-significant" is not the same thing as "insignificant." The volume of anti-Semitic incidents in Quebec is a real problem. I repeat, I am not dismissing the level of hate crimes in Quebec.]
mike s: I believe I did cite evidence suggesting that "anti-Semitisism [sic] is NOT a bigger problem in Quebec," but rather, that anti-Semitism is a problem throughout all Canadian regions, with incidents roughly in proportion to the size of the Jewish population in each province. Please refer to the links I provided, especially the ones showing that the largest number and percentage of anti-Semitic incidents over the past several years occurred in Ontario (specifically Toronto) rather than Quebec (specifically Montreal), and the ones showing that regionally, anti-Semitic incidents occur in roughly the same proportion as the distribution of the Jewish Canadian population.
I'm not sure what you think that article you cited proves. Certainly, it doesn't prove that "anti-Semitism" is worse in Quebec. Canada's wartime treatment of refugees, Jewish or otherwise, was often shameful across the country. Again, only citing Quebec's sins creates a negative impression, but proves little. What the article does focus on is Quebec's "anti-Americanism", though that too is a misnomer made by Ms. Gagnon. More accurately, where Quebec differs is that its population is far more unanimous than the rest of the country in opposing President Bush's foreign policies, a sentiment which bleeds into his unwavering support for Israel, which bleeds into PM Harper's support for the US and Israel, which bleeds into Israel's military campaign in Lebanon. Of course, opposing US foreign policy is not the same thing as being anti-American, just as opposing Israel's actions in Lebanon is not the same thing as being anti-Israel, and opposing PM Harper's foreign policy is not the same thing as being anti-Canadian.
Also, as I'm sure you know, Mr. Zolf ends by wondering aloud "how Quebec can be so complacent and neutral about Hezbollah terrorism," before answering aloud, "Probably the real answer is simply that Quebec feels Israel has used disproportionate power in the Mideast crisis." So, is criticizing Israel's military policy anti-Semitic? Before you answer, please see my general question at the end of this comment.
SPare: The sentiment shared by Barbara Kay, Steve, and evidently, most readers here seems to be that separatists are currently courting the ethnic (read: Lebanese/Middle Eastern/Arab/Muslim) vote, even though in 1995, Parizeau blamed unspecified ethnic groups for voting against separatism. How exactly then do Parizeau's words confirm, then or now, that there are high levels of "Jew hatred in polite society in Quebec"?
tomax7: I don't know why you addressed me specifically in your comment. There's nothing there that addresses anything I said earlier, not is there anything for me to respond to.
And now, for all of you, a few questions that have always left me puzzled: Why is it that opposition to US foreign policy is so often automatically labelled as "anti-Americanism", and why is it that to suggest that Israel's military response in Lebanon was perhaps disproportionate is so often automatically considered "anti-Israel"? Can you not concede the possibility that, like approximately half of the US population, someone like myself could be fond of America and Americans but despise specifically the policies of the Bush administration? Likewise, can you not concede the possibility that someone like myself could be fond of Israel and Israelis but condemn specifically their government and the IDF's complicity in causing the deaths of hundreds of Lebanese civilians? Simple yes or no questions, though I suspect I won't get simple yes or no answers.
Posted by: A at August 16, 2006 10:25 PM
Sorry, Aaron G, I didn't address your point about "Quebecistan." I'll do so now.
The contradiction/double standard in which you believe you've caught me relies on the assumption that I first accept the premise that Quebec, or rather "Quebecistan", can validly be compared to "the muslim states." But I don't accept that premise, thus rendering all the stuff you say afterwards moot. You'll note that I never used the term myself.
Also, as a more general criticism of your argument, you seem to have mixed up your subjects (myself/"most liberals" versus Barbara & Steve). Let me demonstrate. According to you, the first part of my contradictory logic is:
Statement A: "By endorsing the term 'Quebecistan', Barbara & Steve are implying that all Quebecers are anti-Semitic."
Then you claim that the second part of my contradictory logic is:
Statement B: ""Because 'Quebecistan' is an analogy for Muslim states, I and 'most liberals' therefore also believe that all Muslims in those states are anti-Semitic."
In fact, from Statement A above, the second part of my contradictory logic should be:
Statement B: "Because 'Quebecistan' is an analogy for Muslim states, Barbara & Steve therefore also believe that all Muslims in those states are anti-Semitic."
For the record, I personally don't support any of the statements above.
Posted by: A at August 16, 2006 10:55 PM
Horny Toad, I was asking about how Steve Janke replied to the Quebec author's claim about "Quebec being free trade". I was disappointed by how he didn't argued against the assumptation and only goes against "Quebecers listening to American musics only".
Through, you're right. The author made a fool out of himself by claiming that Quebec is for fair trade more than the rest of Canada. Yet, Steve missed out on pointing out this error.
Do you understand me?
Posted by: Crazy Dan at August 16, 2006 11:45 PM
SPare Actually Parizeau was right about the "ethnic vote". The Liberal government rushed through the citizenship papers of more than twenty five thousand "new" Canadians so they could vote No in the referendum.
I do agree with the article though, Jew hating is becoming quite fashionable in some places.
Posted by: Phil at August 17, 2006 02:16 AM
...i heard Newfies wouldn't mind if Quebec separated...would cut 6 hours off the driving time to Toronto...
Posted by: tomax7 at August 17, 2006 08:14 AM
as a jew living in ontario since 1988 but having been born and raised in montreal, my unscientific but personal experience is that anti-semitism is fairly open and acceptable in quebec.
as an example, i recall many incidents playing hockey, even as young as atom, and hearing 'maudit juif' and having the odd penny thrown on the ice.
Posted by: allen at August 17, 2006 09:37 AM
A, reading your posts brings to mind two adages I've heard in my travels. One would be, lies, damn lies, and statistics. Second would be eschew verbosity. Your longwinded attempt to correct all and sundry leaves me with the impression you are probably a lawyer, politician or both. Not a compliment in this day and age.
Posted by: rick at August 17, 2006 10:33 AM
"A, reading your posts brings to mind two adages I've heard in my travels...."
Gee - and I was just thinking that it was nice to have a calm discussion focused on facts. Please note, "A" is making no excuses for anti-Semitism (and explicitly agrees that it is a problem a couple of times) - he (she?) takes issue only with the assertion that anti-Semitism is a greater problem in Quebec than in other parts of the country. There may be a problem with the statistics cited (either in recording anti-Semitic incidents, or in measuring the Jewish population), or with the assumption that the number of incidents relative to the size of the target population is the relevant measure - if so, everyone here is free to point out the error or discuss the methodology. Unless there are such problems, though, it appears that anti-Semitism is evident at about the same (deplorable) level all the way from Cape Spear to Port Hardy.
"Your longwinded attempt to correct all and sundry leaves me with the impression you are probably a lawyer..."
A was responding to specific points raised in response to his comments - would he have been better advised to ignore them, or just call people names and make ad hominem attacks on their (surmised) occupations? Get a grip, man.
Posted by: DCardno at August 17, 2006 12:11 PM
Graffiti on the walls included curses and the words “Die in hell.” The offenders have been identified and were to appear in a criminal youth court.
They should be deported or shot for hate crimes, not given a slap on the wrist in criminal youth court.
This type of behaviour needs tough love. Something equivalent to the hate they have been taught by parents since they could walk and talk.
Posted by: TrustOnlyMulder at August 17, 2006 02:01 PM
If you judge Québec as an antisemitic because of a text by that hysteric biased woman Barbara Kay, what about William Lyon Mackenzie King?
William Lyon Mackenzie King, supposedly the most beloved Prime Minister of Canada... In 1999 King was ranked by historians to be the greatest of Canada's Prime Ministers. (Granatstein & Hillmer, Prime Ministers: Ranking Canada's Leaders).!
December 29, 1921 – June 28, 1926
September 25, 1926 – August 6, 1930
October 23, 1935 –November 15, 1948
Anti-semitism
King hoped an outbreak of war in the 1930s could be avoided, and he supported the appeasement policies of the British. He met with Adolf Hitler who, he remarked in his journal, came across as "a reasonable and caring man ... who might be thought of as one of the saviors of the world." Telling a Jewish delegtion that "Kristallnact" might turn out to be a blessing," he refused to allow Jewish refugees who were attempting to leave Nazi Germany, entry into Canada.
Despite pledges of support from Canada's Jewish community, in June 1939 King also refused to allow a boatload of 900 desperate Jewish refugees (aboard the passenger ship St. Louis), refuge in Canada. When asked how many Jews would be allowed to immigrate immediately after World War II, one of his civil servants famously quipped, "None is too many".
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941, King’s government oversaw the forcible internment of all Japanese-Canadians from Canada’s west coast, giving 22,000 B.C. residents 24 hours to pack. While they were incarcerated, the Canadian government confiscated and sold their property and belongings at public auction. After the war, King offered Japanese-Canadians the option of “repatriation" to a war-ravaged Japan, and Canadians of Japanese origin were not allowed to move back to coastal areas until his government fell several years later.
WOW!
Posted by: Marc Pageau at August 17, 2006 03:58 PM
Excuse me, I'm a bit in flame these days.
The reason is the shameful text written by the dishonest Barbara Kay in the NATIONAL POST titled « The Rise of Quebecistan » published last 9th August 2006, full of clichés and bullshit prejudices about the Québécois.
Why English Canadians better informed about Québec don't show some disapproval against such lies printed in the lone national newspaper in Canada ?
That is shameful, pitiful and pathetic!
Why do you suffer this hate and mean propaganda without saying a word?
Antisemitic Incidents in 2005 according to the B'Nai Brith Canada (please note that the statistics come from their own website!) :
Québec: 133 (16.0 % of the Canada)
Ontario: 544 (65.6 % of the Canada)
Note that the population of Québec is slightly inferior to the one of Ontario...
You know what B'Nai Brith Canada is?
I invite you to take a look at their w.e.b.s.i.t.e.. I'm sorry, I tried to put the direct l.i.n.k. to it but it was not possible : I only get the message «Your comment could not be submitted due to questionable content: l.i.n.k.s. c.o.m.»...
????
Questionable content, the B'Nai Brith Canada?...
Hahaha!!!
Boy, you make my day!!!
;0)
I hope you will have the honesty and the decency o take a look at their w.e.b.s.i.t.e.!
Posted by: Marc Pageau at August 17, 2006 03:59 PM
The issue, Marc, is not so much the absolute number of incidents, though it is worrisome that Ontario seems to have so many (I haven't checked the numbers myself, but let's go with what you've quoted). It is the systemic and semi-official acceptance of that behaviour.
Neither John Tory nor Dalton McGuinty have appeared at rallies supporting Hezbollah. The statistics I quoted suggested that the farther up you go in Quebec's political and academic power structure, the more prevalent anti-Semitic attitudes become, not less. It is interesting that support for separatism also becomes more concentrated in those strata of Quebec society.
Sheer number of incidents is a useful number, but I'm more interested in the quality of the incidents. How many Ontario incidents involved something like the much publicized spray-painting of swastikas on garage doors that happened a few years back? Nasty, but at the end of the day, it is the act of an ignorant teen who is trying to be as controversial as possible, and knows anything Nazi is guaranteed to get his act in the news. Pathetic more than scary.
But when you have tens of thousands of people all in one place, a sea of Quebec flags sharing the space with Hezbollah flags and Nasrallah posters, and at the head of the crowd Quebec nationalists and separatists jossling for space at the podium even as the crowd lustily boos any suggestion that Hezbollah might have a smidgeon of responsibility for the troubles in the Middle East, I think you've got something quite remarkable, even if it counts as just one event in the statistics.
Posted by: Steve Janke at August 17, 2006 04:20 PM
On the question of linking B'Nai Brith, many people who come this blog know from personal experience that the mu.nu backlist is a bit of a mess. mu.nu is the domain hosting this blog. We share the same blacklist and all have the ability to make changes to it. Often ill-considered changes have resulted in comments being disabled across the whole community for hours at a time. Needless to say the guilty munuvian is given a rough time by the rest. I'll check into why B'Nai Brith is being blocked.
No guarantee I'll figure it out though. For the longest time no one could post a comment with the word "socialist". Why? Because I'm conservative? Of course not. It turned out that the filters were blocking any comment with the string "cialis" because it assumed it as spam for that ED drug. A minor fix (" cialis" instead of "cialis") and everything was fine, but it was not at all obvious at the time what was wrong.
Posted by: Steve Janke at August 17, 2006 04:26 PM
OK, I don't know why bnaibrith.com would cause trouble -- there is nothing in the list that matches. Maybe it was something else in the email -- I can't be sure.
Posted by: Steve Janke at August 17, 2006 04:28 PM
As for William Lyon MacKenzie King, I'm not sure what your point is. Did Barbara Kay say he wasn't an anti-Semite? Did I?
Did either of us call him beloved? I'm not sure where that came from. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a PM called beloved.
Granastein and Hillmer's book ranks the Prime Ministers based on a voting process involving just over a dozen historians. They were directed to consider "electoral success, national unity, success in achieving domestic or foreign policy goals, and leadership in cabinet, party and country" (p35). Not personal or moral character, just sheer political success (and WLMK was PM for 21 years, a Commonwealth record that still stands). One supposes that moral character would be subsumed in electoral success, but in King's case, apparently his attitude towards Jews was not a red flag for the voters at the time.
But then Andre Pratt points out Canada's historical problems with anti-Semitism in his attempt to deflect criticism aimed at present day Quebec by looking to Canada's past.
The rebuttal stands -- Canada as a whole seems to have improved, while Quebec has not, as far as rejecting anti-Semitism is concerned.
I'm curious. Is the fact that WLMK was anti-Semitic shield you from criticism concerning your participation in a cartoon contest sponsored by the planet's Number 1 terrorist state whose stated aim is to destroy Israel? I guess WLMK is the greatest prime minister to have that sort of power.
Tell me, can I be excused of an anti-Semitic act for the same reason, or do I have to get my own dead prime minister?
Bottom line, we still haven't seen the cartoons. I'm hoping I'll be presently surprised. But buddy, really. Iran? Holocaust cartoons? What were you thinking?
Posted by: Steve Janke at August 17, 2006 04:48 PM
Are you the Marc Pageau that was the sole Canadian to contibute to the anti-semetic cartoon contest in Iran? Do you have a link to that cartoon?
I checked out your site too. The cartoon labeled, "The Real Almighty ", must have taken a lot of time to think out. Such biting commentary. /sarc
Posted by: Cornmeal at August 17, 2006 06:49 PM
Cornmeal wrote :
« Are you the Marc Pageau that was the sole Canadian to contibute to the anti-semetic cartoon contest in Iran? »
Yep!
Cornmeal wrote :
« Do you have a link to that cartoon? »
No. There are 4 cartoons and i've not uploaded any of them on the web yet!
I'll upload them in the next few weeks on my blog...
If you want to see them, stay tuned!
Cornmeal wrote :
« I checked out your site too. »
Thanks for your visit.
Cornmeal wrote :
« The cartoon labeled, "The Real Almighty ", must have taken a lot of time to think out. Such biting commentary. /sarc »
Why not?
Is it a crime?
And what about all the disgusting racist insults and the dirty prejudices you can read on Québec through the dishonest newspapers such as THE NATIONAL POST?
Come on! It's just damn little cartoons!!!
As far as I know, I've not killed anyone nor making anyone die of my decisions yet... Mr Bush, Olmert, Bin Laden, Hussein and all the Islamoterrorists can't say the same.
I am always astonished to see the POWER cartoons can have on the imagination of people... Especially the biased ones...
Posted by: Marc Pageau at August 17, 2006 07:24 PM
Yes, I must agree with A, above.
While it is true that there may be a larger resident group prone to demonstrate sympaty for Hezbollah and Lebanon in Montreal, it does not follow that all Quebecers are more Hez prone than other Canadians.
If there were a crisis involving Italy, it is quite likely that the largest demonstrations would occur in Toronto. This does Not make all those who live in Ontario carry strong Italian National motives however.
===== In case you missed this =
Some of you have seen this. Please refrain from the temptation to scold and mock.
I present it here for those who may have missed it. It is rare and a very worthy example of bravery and doing the right thing under risky circumstances. We need more Muslims to speak out like this.
This is a brave woman.
Of course, her life is now in danger.
http://tinyurl.com/rj9vd
By Rana Fil, Globe Correspondent
August 14, 2006
BEIRUT -- When Mona Fayad saw Lebanon engulfed in violence, she couldn't keep silent. The psychology professor at Lebanese University did something almost no Shi'ite intellectual dares to do in Beirut , at least in public: criticize Hezbollah.
In a scathing essay titled ``To be a Shi'ite now,* Fayad attacked fellow Shi'ites who, she says, blindly follow the leadership of Hezbollah on a path she described as ``no different from suicide.*
Her bold and unusual stance has sparked debate in the daily newspaper An-Nahar , where it was published, and it has made Fayad something of a celebrity.
``What does it mean to be a Shi'ite for the majority of Shi'ites now, at this critical period?" Fayad wrote. ``It means entrusting your fate to the wise and infallible leadership without daring to ask any question.*
To be a Shi'ite now ``is to block your mind" and let Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, ``command you, drive you, decide for you what he wants from the weapons of Hezbollah, and force on you a victory that is no different from suicide," Fayad wrote. ``To be a Shi'ite and dare such writing and such thinking means that you are a collaborator and a traitor.*
Since then, Fayad has been inundated with calls and e-mails from friends and strangers . ``People thank me, encourage me, and ask me if I am scared," Fayad said. ``But I am not scared because I live in a country where a bomb can fall on my head at any time, so I want to express my opinion.*
A Boston Globe copyright story: = TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at August 18, 2006 01:46 AM
It amazes me that anyone would be surprised by this. The french and quebecers are culturally insecure and have an enormous streak of antisemitism and fascism in their makeup. Many french collaborated in the deportation of Jews during WW 11 and fought with the Nazi forces. The same paper fascism comes through the PQ and refects itself in outrages such as Bill 101 etc.
Posted by: Gary at August 21, 2006 10:52 AM
 
|
|
