Another question here is, "Why is it ok to desecrate a Canadian flag... but it's a racist incident when something happens to the aboriginal flag."

http://hallsofmacadamia.blogspot.com/2006/08/calling-monte-kwinter.html

Posted by: neo at August 7, 2006 05:12 PM

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Extremist Jewish illegal settlers in the Occupied Territories have been using children to attack Palestinians and aid workers (some of whom are Canadian)for years, you just choose to ignore it.

So why the hell should we care about your post? Because the Indians are being "mean"? What do you care? You're fine with using children to start fights when they're "on your side", so who cares?

From one of the many blogs (run by a virtuous and just young Jewish lady from San Francisco) which photograph Israeli children and their wingnut parents who throw rocks at Palestinian women and children:

I have been writing for awhile in my lj about Israeli settler impunity and now i'd like to show you a video i took of an attack that happened to me and a soldier's refusal to intervene. This is just ONE of the attacks that happened to me and 3 other human rights workers on June 14:

Despite video evidence against them, these settlers will neither be arrested, nor charged with any crime. this is the way it is here. Israeli children under 14 cannot be prosecuted and adult settlers use this loophole to harass Palestinians and international human rights workers who are here in Hebron to protect Palestinians. If I had retaliated violently in this situation even in self defense, I would have been arrested for assault and deported. Settlers here rule the place, they are above the law and even the police and soldiers are afraid of them.

again, i am not sending this out because i want sympathy, it's because i want everyone to know what it is like here for the Palestinians who have no police force to go to when attacks happen on them. This kind of thing happens all the time to Palestinians and they don't have video cameras to record it.

There's more. Lots more:

More Settler Attacks on International Volunteers in Tel Rumeida, Hebron
May 28th, 2006 | Posted in Press Releases, Hebron Region

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Youth from the Tel Rumeida settlement spat on, beat, assaulted, and stoned human rights workers from Canada, Denmark and Sweden yesterday (May 27, 2006). In three separate attacks on internationals and Palestinians the kids were encouraged by adults of the religious extremist Jewish community. Israeli soldiers and police refused to do anything to stop the violence. These attacks occur almost daily in Hebron but on Shabbat they are more frequent and in the last few weeks have become more violent, sending more than two internationals to the hospital.

Yesterday afternoon, on Shuhada Street in the H2 area of Hebron, Jewish Canadian human rights workers Peter Trainor, of Toronto, and Canadian Chris Johnston were filming settlers throwing stones at the Palestinian Qurtuba Girls School. Two women, about 18 years of age, then tried unsuccessfully to rip Peter’s video camera out of his hands. About 10 boys, aged between 8 and 18, threw stones as well as kicking and hitting them. The soldier posted nearby, who was just a few meters away, did nothing to stop the stone throwing despite Peter’s calls for help. Instead he left the scene completely. An adult settler with an assault rifle approached and encouraged the children to keep stoning them.

At about the same time, Danish human rights worker BJ Lund was harassed and spat on at the top of Shuhada Street. The soldiers watched the event and agreed that it wasn’t OK, but when BJ asked why they had not intervened, they gave no answer.

Later that day Anna Svenson from Sweden, Chris, and Peter were attacked by a group of about ten male youth between the ages of 8-15 as they walked down Shuhada Street. The youth spat on them, hit Anna in the face, and taunted the soldiers who reprimanded the youth for spitting. A group of soldiers stood between the internationals and the youth, but the youth just threw the stones over their heads. When the police arrived, they threatened to arrest Anna and Peter if they didn’t leave the area.

Human rights workers are stationed in Hebron to make sure that Palestinian children are safe as they go to and from school past the Tel Rumeida settlement. The settlers regularly throw rocks at the children as they walk past and have told soldiers to put razor wire across the beginning of a path that leads to Palestinian homes. The children have to move the wire out of the way every day. There is an Israeli Supreme Court order that allows the children to use this path but soldiers on duty nearby rarely know this and often refuse to help the children get home safely.

Tel Rumeida is a Palestinian neighborhood in the center of Hebron that the most violent and extremist elements of the Israeli settler movement occupy. Soldiers tell the human rights workers that they feel there is nothing they can do to stop the children from throwing stones or hitting the international volunteers. In an article of the Jerusalem Post on Jan 16th, a senior Hebron Police officer Dep.-Cmdr., Shlomo Efrati, explained their lack of power in the area. “[The police] have been suffering from the settlers for years. The government needs to decide to fortify the police and army in Hebron on a permanent basis since even if we evacuate them they will just go back and take over new homes. It is up to the government to decide if it wants this minority to continue running the city or not.�

For more information contact:

ISM Media Office: 02 297 1824

And:

Today I was hanging out in Hebron.. talking to a friend, some settler kids passed us, I ignored them, turned my head to talk to my friend and was hit in the face with a rock. Fortunately it bounced off my sunglasses and I wasn't hurt.

I called the police and they didn't do anything. They wouldn't even take an official complaint from me. I told them I could identify the kids and they said that Israeli children under 14 are immune from prosecution so there's nothing they can do. They refused to even speak to the kids parents.

This is what happens when Palestinian kids throw rocks:
they get tear gassed, shot with rubber bullet and live ammo
they get sent to prison for month sometimes
they are killed

Is this apartheid yet ?

And:

Today in Tel Rumeida, a fellow ISM volunteer and I were walking a Palestinian child home. In order to reach his home, he has to pass by the Tel Rumeida settlement where settler children and teenagers were standing around, waiting for him to pass so they could throw rocks at him. This happens on a daily basis, so we are prepared.

We accompanied him so that, hopefully, the rocks would hit us and not the child. I had a video camera ready to record the rock throwing. We walked up the hill and, predictably the kids started throwing rocks. There were three soldiers standing around who — instead of controlling the children — came after me.

They asked me to stop filming, I said no. They demanded that I give them the camera, I refused. Then, as the settler children were throwing rocks and me, my fellow ISMer and the Palestinian child, the three soldiers tried to take the camera from me. They were unsuccessful because they were fat and they have not studied Kung Fu.
...

They kept covering the lens of my camera with their hand and I kept avoiding them. At one point three soldiers and a bunch of kids cornered me. The soldiers tried to take my camera, and the kids hit and kicked me. When I used my arms to block their attacks, the settler girls who were attacking screamed at me “don’t touch me, you fucking pedophile, you’re just filming so you can go home and masturbate to your porno.� and “The Arabs will kill you if you don’t watch out, just like they kill the Jews.� I said “I am a Jew and they don’t kill me.� A teenaged settler girl yelled back “You are not a good Jew!�

Shame on you for your callous and willful disregard of human suffering.

moomin13.livejournal.com/

Posted by: Mon at August 7, 2006 05:57 PM

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Was there a relevance to that long diatribe? Who is the ISM? Why do they study, and apparently use, Kung Fu? Whose business are they minding when they are not minding their own? The French have a word for "human rights" workers - "provocateurs".

Posted by: Skip at August 7, 2006 06:40 PM

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Neo: It's a good question. It could be Canadians count for nothing and don't even deserve respect in the minds of the Indians. Never mind the little details such as the millions of our hard earned dollars being tossed into a black hole in good faith to allow the Indians to survive as a people all these years. It isn't/wasn't perfect, sins of our fathers and all that. What these people fail to appreciate is the fact they are still here as a people which is glaring testament to civilization by the "white" man .It's about time we seriously consider demanding they join us in the 21st century and learn to respect our flag and people.At this late time in our history we have paid for the land many times over.We have all evolved and no laws or treaties are written in stone. Surely they have no right to break our laws and resort to thuggery without penalty. To desecrate our flag shows contempt for us as a people and is outright racism.

Posted by: LizJ at August 7, 2006 06:42 PM

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If Israel had retaliated violently in this situation even in self defense, Israel would have been vilified and condemmed. Hesbula here rule the place, they are above the law and even the police and soldiers are afraid of them.
There, fixed it!

Posted by: Softtalk at August 7, 2006 06:59 PM

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"the three soldiers tried to take the camera from me. They were unsuccessful because they were fat and they have not studied Kung Fu."
Had to read that twice.LMAO

Posted by: Softtalk at August 7, 2006 07:02 PM

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Mon-
Get your own blog, that's way too long for a 'comment' even if it did make sense....

Posted by: Selma at August 7, 2006 07:04 PM

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Steve:

Spot on.

You know you're doing good when the majority of the posts are either robotrolls(tm) or gremlins(tm)LOL.

It totally sickens me (with tears) when I see pictures of very young children being indoctrinated in death cults (I include first nations who constantly use the term genocide, when Canadians have gone beyond the reasonable to keep an unviable society alive)
Having watched the drama unfold in Caledonia, I can only say that maybe we are the society that will be extinct. Hopefully we can change voting patterns and recover sanity.

Posted by: Fergy at August 7, 2006 09:29 PM

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Let's not forget the many subtle ways in which "Canadian" children learn to view Aboriginals in a stereotypical and/or negative light. For instance, has there ever been a game of Cowboys 'n' Indians where the Indians were the good guys? Or if you walked into a classroom and asked the kids to draw a picture of a typical Native Indian person, how many would draw Pocahontas or someone similar standing beside a teepee with feathers in her hair? How often do children's TV shows and books feature positive contemporary Native characters, as opposed to historical figures in full headdress?

Maybe we could just agree that all sides could do better in not perpetuating stereotypes of others among their own children?

Posted by: A at August 7, 2006 09:40 PM

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Mon dieu, where do people get the time and nerve to write off topic essays on a blog comment site? Geeze, we've got more problems than we realize for sure.

Posted by: LizJ at August 7, 2006 09:51 PM

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Wow, apparently A hasn't turned on a TV or opened a book since 1972.

Posted by: Yukon Gold at August 7, 2006 10:01 PM

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I just went to the ISM site... I think it may be run by the Iraqi Information Minister. Wow, talk about a load of lies, half-truths and exaggerations. Among the gems:

"Internationals were disturbed at the Palestinian outpost* in Bil’in by Israeli military vehicles both during daytime and in the middle of the night. On the night of July 31st at 11:30 pm, the IOF drove military vehicle directly into the shelter where internationals were sleeping, revved their engines and shone their headlight into it. They did this on a number of other occasions during the days before this incident."

I hope the UN sanctions those behind the atrocious headlighting.

Posted by: Yukon Gold at August 7, 2006 10:08 PM

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Translation of Mon's post to it's most basic form:

"I know you are but what am I! I know you are but what am I! I know you are but what am I!"

And now, back to regularly schedule programming.

Posted by: Surecure at August 7, 2006 10:18 PM

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LizJ: At this late time in our history we have paid for the land many times over.

Fergy: Canadians have gone beyond the reasonable to keep an unviable society alive

You are of course each entitled to your points of view, but could you explain to me the moral system that informs these views? Surely, to live an ethical life--whether defined in accordance with the teachings of a particular religious faith, or through universal values of compassion and equality--requires that those of us who have reaped the benefits of being Canadian must also be the first to acknowledge, and atone for, the historical violence and oppression through which those benefits were acquired.

To be clear: I'm not absolving modern Aboriginals from taking responsibility for their own lives, and yes, they should abide by Canadian laws of civil behaviour.

However, the historical record is indisputable: First Nations civilizations, which existed in North America for millennia, were brought to the edge of extinction by European colonialism. Aboriginals have since endured over a century of forced assimilation, laws that criminalized their Indigenous cultures, residential schools, and more.

LizJ, do you believe that it's possible to place a moral statute of limitations on the collective debt owed to a culture nearly decimated by our forefathers?

Fergy, what is "reasonable" reconciliation, when the crime is an act of cultural hegemony that began in the past and continues to this day?

Have we, as a nation, as individuals, really done all we can to repay what was taken? Not just their land, but their autonomy; not just their resources, but their history. Even now, whether measured through life expectancy, health indicators, or socioeconomic conditions, Aboriginals languish in the margins of Canadian society. As the beneficiaries of an unequal system, surely we have no moral right to excuse ourselves from the work of rebalancing the equation. Until these injustices are resolved, until First Nations peoples achieve parity with the general population, the sins of the fathers must necessarily become the sins of the sons and daughters.

Posted by: A at August 7, 2006 10:36 PM

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Yukon Gold: Well, Disney's Pocahontas was released in 1995, and Pocahontas II was released in 1998. So, even within the last decade, we continue to see major cultural works targeted at children that continue to portray Natives in stereotypical fashion. Or can you offer some recent examples of commercial representations of First Nations peoples, aimed at kids, with the same level of exposure and popularity as these cartoons, that didn't confirm to historical stereotypes? I know Sesame Street has done some good stuff to represent modern Inuit and Native cultures, but they don't have nearly the marketing power or cultural reach that Disney does.

I stand by my original contention, that if you were to ask a bunch of kids under the age of, say, 10 to draw what they considered to be a typical Native person, the majority would come up with something that looks like a Disney cartoon, despite the fact that it has virtually no semblance to what a Native person dresses and acts like today. In terms of harm, this is reasonably mild stuff, but any stereotype is wrong in principle, and collectively we could do better to prevent them from forming in the first place.

Posted by: A at August 7, 2006 11:01 PM

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My kids are just toddlers, but in a few years, if you ask them to draw a picture of a Native person, they'll probably draw a picture of one of the Natives in our neighbourhood. Unfortunately, that picture will show an unemployed family with lots of kids that run around unwatched, living in a beat up house, taking poor care of their posessions, leaving garbage lying around, drinking a lot, fighting a lot.

I think the Pocahontas stereotype is a little more healthy than the welfare bum stereotype. I'm not sure if life on reserves is all flowers & sunshine, but in Winnipeg's West End, there really isn't a healthy representation of a modern First Nations person.

Posted by: Adune at August 8, 2006 01:10 AM

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Oh dear God. Here we go again. A, if you want to feel guilty, be my guest. Wear that crown of thorns with pride and deep rooted guilt.

In return for "their" land, the indiginous population was given certain things by the government. They were also required to keep the peace and abide by the laws of the land. I would offer that both sides have not been entirely in line with the actions expected of them by the signing of the treaties.

Is it my fault, or the fault of my forebearers, that the aboriginals ahve let their own people down? Blatant abuse of and by their own? Chiefs and Band councils who pad their own bank accounts, and the accounts of their favorite relatives, while ignoring the needs of the majority of the band residents? This is not isolated. It is rampant within the aboriginal community. Abuse condoned , as long as it is carried out by their own "ruling class". But feel free to sweep that part of native culture away. It will help you carry your guilt more deeply.

Ask most kids under the age of 10 to draw a native and they will draw Pocahontas? That is bad how? Was she not a strong and heroic figure who saved the lives of the settlers. Or should they draw the average person they see on the street, stuck in a cycle of despair? That would be more positive?

Ask those same kids to draw you a dinosaur, and most will draw Barney.

I, for one, refuse to accept any guilt for the socio-economic, health standards, or life expectancy precipitated at the hands of their own leaders. There is more than ample funds distributed to Indian Bands from Government sources to Raise ALL natives to an appropriate standard of living. Take off your rose coloured glasses and you will see that the vast majority of current native problems are self inflicted. Chiefs paying themselves 6 figure salaries, and Band councillors recieving mid to high 5 figure salaries are the norm. All tax free as stipulated in the treaties. All the while, the average Reserve resident is barely scraping by. Palatial homes built for the leadership, while the rest live in sub-standard housing.

Oh yeah, just one more point. My kids never played a game of cowboys and Indians in their lives. Do kids still play that since there just aren't many westerns anymore? All children learn from their enviroments. My kids, played sports and engaged in other activities both in school and outside with aboriginal kids. All the kids were treated as equals by coaches and instructors. By the end of each season or session, the kids were friends for the most part. As were the parents. It certainly didn't bridge the gulf, but it did lead to more understanding.

This could go on and on, but I won't let it. I feel NO gullt. Why should I, when the leaders of our aboriginal population take no responsibilty for the shameful conditions THEY impose upon their own people?

Steve, kids have always been taught what their parents believe. Culture of love, hate, exclusion, inclusion, whatever. Always has been so, always will be so. So it goes. While it may have some unfortunate consequences, it is just a fact of life. So the kids cutting up a Canadian flag are being taught their parents culture of hatred? Yep. Just like every other kid in the world, they wil grow up to embrace or reject their parents views and values. Good, bad or indifferent, this is how it is.

Posted by: Sober 2nd Thought at August 8, 2006 01:49 AM

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This has nothing to do with Caledonia,but with mon's little tirade. Look up the ISM hijinks in Israel and palestine. If I had been one of the Israeli soldiers and had known they were with ISM I'd have kicked their asses back to the airport. Oh yeah, kung fu, why not just say disco dancing with sound effects.

Posted by: rick at August 8, 2006 06:29 AM

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Sober: Yes, there is funding from the government (though perhaps less than you might think). Yes, much of it is tax-exempt. Yes, there is some abuse of power among Band leaders. Yes, they are subject to Canadian laws. No, I'm not condoning the desecration of the Canadian flag.

Again, I don't wish to cast Aboriginals as mere victims, unable to help themselves. They must organize and strengthen their communities, work to create better opportunities for themselves.

But one cannot rebuild a culture with money alone. When European settlers began arriving, they didn't merely claim the land and her natural resources, they also took away an entire way of life. That is a theft without precedent in Canada, then and since. How do you shatter an entire people's history, their spiritual lives, and then toss them some money and a patch of reserve land and say, rebuild your utopia here, and only here, and stay out of our way? Who can say, from a moral standpoint, what the guilt should be? Who can say when their complicity and responsibility expires?

It may or may not have been your direct ancestors who committed the crime, but the fact that you now live in Canada, raise your children here, enjoy the privileges that life here affords, means that some of that blood is on your hands, and your children's. So long as these inequalities still exist, it's on everyone's hands, who benefits from a history of oppression.

Adune: Yes, the 'Pocahontas' stereotype is healthier than the welfare bum stereotype, but neither is as healthy as an accurate representation of what many Native people look like today--regular people, in suits and jeans and dresses, working as doctors, farmers, lawyers, shop owners, etc. Is my original point--that we can all do better--really so contentious?

Posted by: A at August 8, 2006 07:50 AM

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A needs to reailze the the march of history is seldom a smooth and peaceful ride.
Rebuild a culture? Why? If a culture cannot survive on it's own despite what other nearby culture's effect on it is. It doesn't really deserve to survive does it?
Cultures have come and gone over the centuries, but the people will always continue on with their boring everyday lives... hopefully.

Posted by: James at August 8, 2006 08:54 AM

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Everything Sober 2nd Thought stated was bang on and I second it.

It may or may not have been your direct ancestors who committed the crime, but the fact that you now live in Canada, raise your children here, enjoy the privileges that life here affords, means that some of that blood is on your hands, and your children's. So long as these inequalities still exist, it's on everyone's hands, who benefits from a history of oppression.

Excellent! Now just how is it that I should go about pursuing my claim against the English government for pushing my Irish ancestors off their land? Or against the Norweigien government for allowing Vikings to plunder my ancestors family's land?

You see, I feel no personal responsibility for something that happened when even my grandfather wasn't alive. And I sure won't pass that "responsibility" on to my children and to their descendants FOREVER. I refuse to saddle them with that. And if First Nations would stop saddling their children with the stigma of perpetual victimhood and entitlement, then I daresay that they would be better off.

Somewhere along the way personal responsibility for your own welfare needs to become centre stage, because after billions and billions in funding, First Nations are STILL no better off. It makes me wonder why, yet everytime I ask the question, I am called "racist". Go figure.

Posted by: The Grunt at August 8, 2006 08:54 AM

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Poster "A": Totally disagree with your view. At this point we should be placing a statute of limitations on money we are tossing into the great black hole for the Chiefs to mismanage and play the blame game over and over. You can hike it with your guilt and most outrageous idea of a moral statute on collective debt, what tripe. Great racket, get money, mismanage the money, blame the givers, demand more, disobey our laws with thuggery and most damning of all show no respect with their deliberate desecration of our flag. Great example for their children, the beat goes on.

Posted by: LizJ at August 8, 2006 09:13 AM

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James: Rebuild a culture? Why? If a culture cannot survive on it's own despite what other nearby culture's effect on it is. It doesn't really deserve to survive does it?

Aboriginal indigenous culture survived quite happily in North America for several millennia before the colonialists arrived. Survival is made difficult when the 'effect' that 'nearby cultures' have on your people is one of direct and indirect attempts to assimilate and thereby wipe out your culture.

Grunt & LizJ: For a third time, I'm not at all claiming that Aboriginals have no responsibility for their own actions. Victimhood is self-defeating, laws should be obeyed, flags should be respected, etc. I agree with your points about that. But again, the issue is broader than money or land claims (though they're certainly both a part of the solution). This is about our coming to terms with the legacy of a past policy of cultural oppression. There is absolutely a moral component to this. This is not unique to Canada. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders--these are all New World powers who established sovereignty by forceably wrestling the land away from the local indigenous populations. All have since acknowledged the sins of the past. All continue to struggle to make appropriate amends.

As for 'personal responsibility,' I'm not suggesting that Canadians sacrifice their sovereignty, or their way of life, or their homes and land. I'm not even suggesting that we all cut a cheque to support Native charities. I don't know what the solution will be, but I know it's not excusing ourselves from dealing with the problem. In the meantime, I'm merely suggesting that we keep in mind the unique nature of this issue, that we try to instill in our children an openmindedness and compassion about the "Native question" (by, for instance, not perpetuating stereotypes, and seeking out positive role models instead), and that at the very least, we refrain from rhetoric like that which refers to Aboriginals as "an unviable society."

From Steve's original blog: If children are taught an early age to demean and ridicule the enemy, then how will they "unlearn" those lessons? How can they understand that the "bad" people can become "good" people, though nothing much seems to have changed. They still look the same and talk the same and live in the same place. The subtleties of realpolitick will be lost on them.

There is truth in this. Steve was directing that message to the parents of the Native children who tore the flag. However, I'd ask that you think of your own antagonism towards Native peoples, and consider the origins of those beliefs. And then ask yourselves if you'd like to pass on those same beliefs to your children, and if doing so will help or hinder the goal of "a lasting peace, or at least a stable co-existance."

Posted by: A at August 8, 2006 10:11 AM

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I watched a person last night in the middle east telling me how they "would fight to the death" while holding a baby less than a year old in his arms. Fine, put down the baby, fight to the death. But to challenge any body while holding a baby in their arms is gutless move.
It is the same here in Canada. Caledonia is not the only place that the "warriors" hide behind the women and children. They do this so that they can say that we are harming innocent women and children when the OPP go in to remove them. Well who brought the innocents and then provoked the fight.
As for all this crap about what happened 200 years ago, or even 50 years ago we were all very horrible to each other. Race vs race, culture vs culture, religion vs religion, country vs country, .... So the question is do we continue to worry about what happened yesterday or do we move forward. I know "people who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it" but there comes a time when we have to move on.
There is also something that is called the intent of the law. The laws that were written 200 years ago did not have the intent that we support the natives like invalid children in perpetuity. The intent was that we live in harmony. Some harmony.

Posted by: dave at August 8, 2006 10:31 AM

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A, ask those same kids to draw a piture of a cowboy or a rancher. Hey, how about a gold miner?

Some of my friends are cattlemen and yes, even gold miners. They look nothing like the pictures the kids would turn out. Heck, they wear old Nikes, baseball caps and jeans, and drive around in F-150's and Chrysler 300's.

Your point about Hollywood's interpretation of natives brings nothing to this. Quit excusing bad behaviour on societal influences, and start making people accountable for actions.

Posted by: Yukon Gold at August 8, 2006 10:48 AM

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This is about our coming to terms with the legacy of a past policy of cultural oppression.

Legacy? It is not place, my family's place, or society's place to come to terms with it. For the most part (referring to those who were in residential schools), the people we are referring to who did the oppressing and the oppressed are long gone. How long should we be expected to "come to terms"? Forever? Those in the Indian Industry certainly have a vested interest in ensuring that we are forever "coming to terms".

All have since acknowledged the sins of the past. All continue to struggle to make appropriate amends.

And how long do we acknowledge (or, more appropriatley, PAY) for those sins? What would be an appropriate time frame? 10 years, 50, years, 300 years, 5000 years............forever? We've done enough already, and are STILL doing it. Enough is enough.

I don't know what the solution will be, but I know it's not excusing ourselves from dealing with the problem.

So what else is left, throw money after the problem as we've always done, with no results and the issues as bad (if not worse) than ever? No, I'm not "excusing" myself, my taxes see to that.

In the meantime, I'm merely suggesting that we keep in mind the unique nature of this issue, that we try to instill in our children an openmindedness and compassion about the "Native question" (by, for instance, not perpetuating stereotypes, and seeking out positive role models instead), and that at the very least, we refrain from rhetoric like that which refers to Aboriginals as "an unviable society."

Good idea. Let is all keep an open mind and ensure that ideas such as equality FOR ALL, hard work, personal responsibility, and the idea that other people aren't always to blame for out problems is always in the forefront. "Rhetoric" you say? Well, rhetoric (that we who disagree with this are bigots and racists) works both ways, and I for one am sick and tired of it.

However, I'd ask that you think of your own antagonism towards Native peoples, and consider the origins of those beliefs.

See what I mean?

Posted by: The Grunt at August 8, 2006 10:56 AM

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A, These societal portrayls and sterotypes work both ways. For example, Hollywood and popular culture these days continuously protrays native people as always being one with the land, completley holistic, respectful of wildlife, a harmless, peaceful, calm, environmentally minded holy-like people that are always three steps above us selfish, immoral, and decadent white folk in morality.

So you can speak of false and negative stereotypes for as long as your little heart desires. It is obvious that sterotypes work both ways.

Posted by: The Grunt at August 8, 2006 11:06 AM

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Yukon Gold: Hollywood's interpretation of natives brings nothing to this.

I think it does, if its perpetuation of a stereotype, however innocuous, shapes children's views of the world, and limits how they perceive different groups within it. Stereotyping all cowboys as gun-totin', lasso-wavin' outlaws isn't ideal either. But one difference is that 'cowboy' (and 'gold miner', etc.) does not constitute a core cultural identity for an entire people. Limiting the representation of Native peoples to primitive 'Indians' is something akin to limiting the representation of Chinese peoples as martial artists. Not necessarily hateful, but inaccurate, and hence should be discouraged or at least re-balanced with alternative representations.

Posted by: A at August 8, 2006 11:11 AM

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So, wait, A(lbert Kwan), you said we should be paying them back to help keep their traditional culture and historic ways of life.

Then you say we shouldn't have Hollywood portray those historic ways of life, because it's stereotypical. And, unless I'm mistaken, you've also just decided that we shouldn't make any movies about natives and their role in history -- because of course, it would be hurtful to show them in buckskins and living in teepees.

It must be easy to be a leftist. You just change your stance depending on what feels right at the time.

Posted by: Yukon Gold at August 8, 2006 11:37 AM

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Yukon Gold: And, unless I'm mistaken, you've also just decided that...

Actually, yes, you are mistaken. I never said we should avoid all historical depictions of a culture, but I believe they should be tempered with more modern representations as well. Stereotypes become stereotypes when they are the only representation made available. Some cowboys use lassos; some Chinese people study martial arts; some Native people wear ceremonial headdresses. Many (most?), however, no longer do so. I'm still waiting for you to offer some recent examples of media depictions aimed at young children where Natives are portrayed as something other than the standard "buckskins and teepees" Indians.

Thanks for posting my full name, by the way. As per Steve's policy on anonymity:

Better yet, post your comments directly to the blog. I've enabled anonymous posts for exactly this reason. I don't believe that people must identify themselves to make an opinion known -- to require that is to put a chill on free speech.

Granted, I used my email address in earlier posts, so I haven't made a huge effort to maintain anonymity. Having said that, where I have chosen to post using only my "pseudonym", I'm pretty sure it's not your place to "out" me. I trust you'll do the gentlemanly thing and apologize.

Posted by: A at August 8, 2006 12:26 PM

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Hollywood is not Canada. Look to Canadian tv to see how Canadians are treating natives. CBC has run lots of media showing natives living in Canada

Look to Hollywood to see how Canadians are percieved in America. Don't remember the exact quote from 70's show but something like this -- "lets drive up to the border and throw rocks at the Canadians, it's great they don't do anything."
And it is hard to argue they are wrong. We bitch and complain about the situation in Caledonia but do nothing about it.
But don't blame me for the way Hollywood portrays anyone.

Posted by: dave at August 8, 2006 12:43 PM

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Apologize for tying two posters into one? Not bloody likely.

Without even bothering to research anything, I'll just say this: Ever heard of APTN? They have a whole division called APTN kids.

Oops. They have a show called Tipi Tales! Guess they are part of the problem, eh?

Posted by: Yukon Gold at August 8, 2006 02:10 PM

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Who's blog is this anyway? I thought it was one of the Blogging Tories, but looks like it's being monopolized by long comments and essays of pompous, holier than thou rhetorical rants.It's not debate, there's no room for debate when someone is steel-brushing leftist propaganda at every oportunity. Bottom line , all of us who have a point of view that differs from the Left are racists and bigots. Can't speak for other bloggers, but I don't appreciate someone implying racism and bigotry, but it's always used to stifle debate and claim the final word.

Posted by: LizJ at August 8, 2006 04:13 PM

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First off, if any natives have a claim to Caledonia its not the Mohawks.

The "grant" they say was stolen from them by the crown was originally owned by another tribe altogether, that tribe incidentally was in a perpetual state of war with the Mohawks and Iroquois. The Huron being natural allies of the French got the brunt of it when the British won the battle at the Plains of Abraham ( the british settlers by the way where not to pleased either when they refused to let the colonists migrate further into the interior due to "treaty agreements").
Point is if any "native and claim" exists, its not the tribe currently occupying the site.

Further to that, as it was the crown that originally granted the land some 200 years ago that is now ordering same natives off the property, its a stretch that the natives claim a treaty right granted by that same authority is now being ignored. More ironic still is the fact the natives refuse to recognize the authority that would have granted the treaty right.
If they refuse to recognize the crown, the crown can ignore any treaty claim, factual or fictional.

Case closed, now move off the land, or get removed.

Posted by: gimbol at August 9, 2006 01:56 PM

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Maybe they are training their children like the Arabs do. Start them young then violence comes easer to them. If they stayed home went to school, they would leave six nation since they would be educated. Then they would want more out of life then staying home waiting for a check.

Posted by: jim smith at August 18, 2006 08:48 PM

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